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GT electric driving range of 18 miles


alfredck

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11 hours ago, akirby said:

The PIH is for maximum sustained high performance - with a regular hybrid you don’t store enough battery power for that.

its a little disappointing but if the alternative was to compromise other areas then I think it was the right choice,  the price alone puts it out of reach of most normal PIH buyers.

My understanding of how a PIH works is that the EV portion of the HV battery is for EV usage, i.e. EV range. The hybrid portion of the battery is for 'traditional' hybrid function, which in the case of the Aviator is aimed at performance. The Aviator will still function as a performance hybrid after its EV range from the HV voltage battery has been depleted. My C-Max Energi will still perform as a hybrid after I've depleted its EV capability.

Edited by Harley Lover
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All this back and forth about mileage.  Reality is, I believe 30 miles+ is what is needed for the average commute.  You add in AC, Heat, that 28 speaker Revel cranking, massaging seats etc and it is going to reduce the mileage.  Then, add in 10 degrees outside during the winter times and that will reduce it.  If I was designing this and looking at real world numbers, I'd want a solid 60 minutes of pure electric driving.  That's 1 hour on the highway, 2 hours on the neighborhood back roads.  My commute is 31 minutes which consists of 18 minutes on back roads to get to the highway and another 13 or so minutes on the highway to get into the city.  

Ideally if I was paying for the GT, I'd want to get there so I can plug in enough to get home.  

 

To be able to say you can travel 45-60 minutes without using a drop of gas is really where this should be.  Otherwise, sure you can run to Target on electric but then you are running on gas to get home.  

 

I know people are saying this model is about performance but I really don't think it is.  I don't see people hotrodding their Aviator around with the family.  This isn't a single man's/woman's vehicle IMO.

YMMV

Edited by blwnsmoke
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8 hours ago, msm859 said:

I am in the market and the  Aviator is  a top  contender.  However, for the family suv  I  care more  about  reducing my carbon footprint. I am replacing an Explorer Platinum which at 365 hp is plenty.

How about Tesla Model X Long Range? 96 MPGe, 325 miles range, 0-60 mph in 4.4 seconds, seats up to 7 people. It does cost more than Aviator GT up front. But as a pure BEV and not a PHEV, Model X will have lower ownership costs and is ready for a future in which ICE vehicles including hybrids will be banned in certain areas.

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14 hours ago, msm859 said:

And I would suggest to you that if those people had the opportunity to buy the GX460s, Navigators, Escalades etc. In a "greener" PHEV option with the same - or better performance and substantially better MPG they would buy them.

I suspect you may be right, but every vehicle has comprises unless cost is not a factor. Let’s wait and see what the official number is before casting stones. If they could have jacked up the range without it being at the expense of the power and other capabilities, and not driving up the cost substantially, I suspect they would have done so. I’m sure we will know soon what the real deal is. 

For the record, I would put myself in the camp you mention above, but I would not be willing to sacrifice power for economy. 

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43 minutes ago, blwnsmoke said:

All this back and forth about mileage.  Reality is, I believe 30 miles+ is what is needed for the average commute.  You add in AC, Heat, that 28 speaker Revel cranking, massaging seats etc and it is going to reduce the mileage.  Then, add in 10 degrees outside during the winter times and that will reduce it.  If I was designing this and looking at real world numbers, I'd want a solid 60 minutes of pure electric driving.  That's 1 hour on the highway, 2 hours on the neighborhood back roads.  My commute is 31 minutes which consists of 18 minutes on back roads to get to the highway and another 13 or so minutes on the highway to get into the city.  

Ideally if I was paying for the GT, I'd want to get there so I can plug in enough to get home.  

 

To be able to say you can travel 45-60 minutes without using a drop of gas is really where this should be.  Otherwise, sure you can run to Target on electric but then you are running on gas to get home.  

 

I know people are saying this model is about performance but I really don't think it is.  I don't see people hotrodding their Aviator around with the family.  This isn't a single man's/woman's vehicle IMO.

YMMV

I would suggest you are wrong, because I haul around a family and I like performance.  I suspect there are many others out there like me, because I see a lot of families driving in performance SUVs where I live. 

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22 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

How about Tesla Model X Long Range? 96 MPGe, 325 miles range, 0-60 mph in 4.4 seconds, seats up to 7 people. It does cost more than Aviator GT up front. But as a pure BEV and not a PHEV, Model X will have lower ownership costs and is ready for a future in which ICE vehicles including hybrids will be banned in certain areas.

However, it is ugly IMO, so there’s that to consider. 

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16 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

Here's the deal: If Aviator PIH is a performance vehicle, then why offer it as a plug in hybrid? Why not offer it as a straight hybrid, if indeed the EV range is irrelevant? The fact that Lincoln is offering it as a PIH means that there is an expectation from consumers familiar with that approach that a certain EV range can be expected. 18 miles for EV range is inadequate in this day and age for a PIH vehicle. That range is certainly not a game changer, it's not really even competitive.

No argument from me regarding Aviator as a performance vehicle. Its EV range as a PIH is not up to snuff. 

Well, there are always exemptions to the rule.

My daily commute to work takes me 7 minutes and only longer if there is a traffic-jam. However, my workplace is only 2.8 miles away from home.

So in theory, I could get to work and back 3 days in a row without recharging or burning a single drop of fuel. My nearest supermarket is even closer. See, this might not be the norm but for me, the plug-in version makes a lot of sense and if I can still have 494 HP and 630 lb-ft. which I could not get on a regular hybrid, I'll take it!?

Right now, I own a 2017 Audi Q7 3.0T. Gas mileage for my commute really sucks because I'm either stuck in traffic (stop&go) AND/OR can't get the engine up to optimal operating temperature due to the short commute which makes it even worse. The Audi costs me $1,350/month on my 36/10K lease (MSRP: $88K) and I don't think the Aviatator (MSRP: $91K) will cost me a dime more. 

For me, the plug-in concept is something new and while my mother is currently driving a 2017 MKZ Hybrid, the concept on the Aviator is totally different.

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4 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

My understanding of how a PIH works is that the EV portion of the HV battery is for EV usage, i.e. EV range. The hybrid portion of the battery is for 'traditional' hybrid function, which in the case of the Aviator is aimed at performance. The Aviator will still function as a performance hybrid after its EV range from the HV voltage battery has been depleted. My C-Max Energi will still perform as a hybrid after I've depleted its EV capability.

Based on what I read in the manual, I can confirm that.

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50 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

How about Tesla Model X Long Range? 96 MPGe, 325 miles range, 0-60 mph in 4.4 seconds, seats up to 7 people. It does cost more than Aviator GT up front. But as a pure BEV and not a PHEV, Model X will have lower ownership costs and is ready for a future in which ICE vehicles including hybrids will be banned in certain areas.

My wife does not care for the looks or the interior of the Model X.  We went to the LA auto show last year and she loved the Aviator.  I was hoping the GT would be the stepping stone and in 3-4 years there should be multiple options for BEV's.  Funny about all this talk on performance she was concerned that a BEV or PHEV would be slow.  I assured her either would be faster than what she has now.  Maybe I should have her test drive an X in Ludicrous mode ;)

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I'm waiting for official numbers on the range. I'm hoping it will be higher than 18 mi. Porsche Cayenne plugin has 27 mi and in general, 18 mi is just not very useful. Even for driving in-town during the day, where I live,

 I would easily hit 20 mi or more. I know that there is also a 100hp bump in power etc, but if Lincoln is providing plugin capability, it should be something usable, otherwise, why bother with buying chargers etc and 

pluggin the car in.  I don't expect anything amazing, but for the price, I was hoping for more than 18 mi. There are a lot of other brands to choose from and convenience of having a decent range would move me away from BMW or Mercedes or even Lexus towards Lincoln. But if it's basically just a gimmick ( I suspect in real world driving 18 mi range would be more like 14 - just guessing), it may not be enough to attract buyers from other brands.  I still like the looks of the car and looking forward to a test drive. 

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5 hours ago, EcoBoost said:

Based on what I read in the manual, I can confirm that.

Close except that there is only one battery and software determines how the battery power is used:

EV only - ICE is off and only the electric motor is used

Both ICE and electric motor are used in combination for max performance.  

Hybrid - works like a regular hybrid where the electric motor assists the ICE using energy recovered from braking or plugging it in or using the ICE to charge the battery.

 

The point is without using the ICE to recharge or plugging it in you can’t get enough battery power for sustained max performance just from regen braking.  That’s why it has to be a plug in and not just a regular hybrid.

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Lets see, the guy in charge of the Aviator Grand Touring design says its primarily about performace... the said GTs hybrid system adds 94 Hp and 215 lb-ft of torque over the gas only models (more torque added than some cars make)... even with the optional performance exhaust the new mid engine Corvette Stingray only makes 1 HP more and a full 160 lb-ft less than the GT... so it sure appears like the value added is awesome performance, with the additional benefit of gas free short trips and better overall mpg in hybrid mode.  I have one ordered and yes I was hoping for the full tax credit and a little better range, but the recently announced hp/torque increase was a really nice surprise that helps to make up for it!!!  And the true SLA front suspension over the new Explorer's McPherson Struts is another performance oriented surprise!!!  I can't wait to see the full final specs, EPA ratings, and road tests that should be coming soon.

Edited by CoolScoop
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2 hours ago, akirby said:

Close except that there is only one battery and software determines how the battery power is used:

EV only - ICE is off and only the electric motor is used

Both ICE and electric motor are used in combination for max performance.  

Hybrid - works like a regular hybrid where the electric motor assists the ICE using energy recovered from braking or plugging it in or using the ICE to charge the battery.

 

The point is without using the ICE to recharge or plugging it in you can’t get enough battery power for sustained max performance just from regen braking.  That’s why it has to be a plug in and not just a regular hybrid.

None of which contradicts what I wrote. Even after the EV portion of the battery is depleted, the Aviator will still operate as a hybrid - performance or otherwise. The PIH component of the Aviator is all about EV range, separate and apart from its hybrid capability.

When the Mustang hybrid debuts, do you expect it to have a plug? Of course not. But by your reasoning, it will HAVE to have a plug to generate its performance. It won't.

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I saw the video also by the guy in charge of design and I disagree with his priority.  Yes, make the GT more powerful than the base - I would have just preferred that was by using the 365 hp 3.0 ICE and adding a 150 hp electric motor and large enough battery to go 50 km - especially since it looks like they left @$1,000 on the table for tax rebate. As to the comparison to the new C8 I see zero connection.  The C8 weighs @ 2000 lbs less!  Why don't we compare the torque to the F350 Powerstroke 935 lb-ft !! - now that's a crazy number - twice the C8 but just as irrelevant.  I will be buying a new C8 next year.  I will not be, nor worried about a drag race with an Aviator GT.

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5 minutes ago, msm859 said:

I saw the video also by the guy in charge of design and I disagree with his priority.  Yes, make the GT more powerful than the base - I would have just preferred that was by using the 365 hp 3.0 ICE and adding a 150 hp electric motor and large enough battery to go 50 km - especially since it looks like they left @$1,000 on the table for tax rebate. As to the comparison to the new C8 I see zero connection.  The C8 weighs @ 2000 lbs less!  Why don't we compare the torque to the F350 Powerstroke 935 lb-ft !! - now that's a crazy number - twice the C8 but just as irrelevant.  I will be buying a new C8 next year.  I will not be, nor worried about a drag race with an Aviator GT.

 

dead-horse.jpg

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18 hours ago, msm859 said:

Yes, that matters.  And  I am  glad it tops in that category.  But this is not an abstract concern.  I am in the market and the  Aviator is  a top  contender.  However, for the family suv  I  care more  about  reducing my carbon footprint. I am replacing an Explorer Platinum which at 365 hp is plenty.  I suspect the 400 hp base Aviator would be even more "plenty".  So for me the GT is about the "green" side.  I am willing to pay $15k+ over the base for that - not the extra hp per se.

 

17 minutes ago, msm859 said:

I saw the video also by the guy in charge of design and I disagree with his priority.  Yes, make the GT more powerful than the base - I would have just preferred that was by using the 365 hp 3.0 ICE and adding a 150 hp electric motor and large enough battery to go 50 km - especially since it looks like they left @$1,000 on the table for tax rebate. As to the comparison to the new C8 I see zero connection.  The C8 weighs @ 2000 lbs less!  Why don't we compare the torque to the F350 Powerstroke 935 lb-ft !! - now that's a crazy number - twice the C8 but just as irrelevant.  I will be buying a new C8 next year.  I will not be, nor worried about a drag race with an Aviator GT.

 

23 hours ago, msm859 said:

 

Reducing the Carbon footprint in a C8.   Yep, I see that?  Bet the Aviator gets better MPG than the C8!  Ever since the HP/twist revelation, all I can think about is "Son, you're going to drive me to drinkin if you don't stop drivin that Hot Rod Lincoln".  I sorta feel guilty about not feeding enough carbon to the trees by getting a little green PHEV.   

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9 minutes ago, mustangchief said:

 

 

Reducing the Carbon footprint in a C8.   

The C8 is replacing a C7 and I drive less than 10k miles per year in it.  Our "family" vehicle is driven @ twice as many miles per year - far more important.  And the biggest misconception is that going "green" means giving up everything.  Last several years I have added 39 solar panels - over 10kWh system on my house.  Heat pump water heater etc.  Everything for the house has been the most efficient you can buy - has radiant heat with a boiler that is so efficient that it vents out of pvc pipe.  And for the record the C7 has "eco" mode that deactivates 4 cylinders , 7 speed Manuel transmission, so on the freeway I get over 30 mpg.  So I am all for having "fun" AND being environmentally conscious. 

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2 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

None of which contradicts what I wrote. Even after the EV portion of the battery is depleted, the Aviator will still operate as a hybrid - performance or otherwise.

And if I recall correctly, by using the 'conserve' mode, you can actually charge up to 75% of the battery without plugging in.

So while you have to use the plug to get to 100%, there is no need to.

It will be interesting to see what the actual MPG will be in pure hybrid mode, without any power from the plug. If acceptable, I might skip the charging station installation for now (would be nice if Lincoln would have an option to have that somehow included as an option with the vehicle purchase).

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46 minutes ago, EcoBoost said:

And if I recall correctly, by using the 'conserve' mode, you can actually charge up to 75% of the battery without plugging in.

So while you have to use the plug to get to 100%, there is no need to.

It will be interesting to see what the actual MPG will be in pure hybrid mode, without any power from the plug. If acceptable, I might skip the charging station installation for now (would be nice if Lincoln would have an option to have that somehow included as an option with the vehicle purchase).

You don't need a charging station.  Technically you could plug it in to a 110 - probably get a full charge overnight.  Better would be a 220 14/50 plug with a 50 amp fuse.  I wired my garage for 2 separate 50 amp outlets.

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2 hours ago, CoolScoop said:

It comes with a 110v charging cord for standard 15 or 20 amp outlet.  The manual says no extension cords or any other devices should be plugged into the same circuit while charging.  A charging station would provide faster charging, but its not required.

Hmm, that would actually require some work in my garage. While I do have a free outlet available in the garage, my landscape lighting transformers (2x300W) are running on that same circuit. I will have to get an electrician to my home to see if he can set up a dedicated circuit.

Standard 110v charging would be fine with me. If it can ce charged over night, that's all I need.

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1 hour ago, EcoBoost said:

Hmm, that would actually require some work in my garage. While I do have a free outlet available in the garage, my landscape lighting transformers (2x300W) are running on that same circuit. I will have to get an electrician to my home to see if he can set up a dedicated circuit.

Standard 110v charging would be fine with me. If it can ce charged over night, that's all I need.

Need to check if that is a 15 or 20 amp circuit?  Also, are you actually using 600 watts of landscaping lights?  Thats 5 amps.  Might be easier to convert to LED lights and then you would have no problem sharing that circuit.

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11 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

None of which contradicts what I wrote. Even after the EV portion of the battery is depleted, the Aviator will still operate as a hybrid - performance or otherwise. The PIH component of the Aviator is all about EV range, separate and apart from its hybrid capability.

When the Mustang hybrid debuts, do you expect it to have a plug? Of course not. But by your reasoning, it will HAVE to have a plug to generate its performance. It won't.

You keep saying EV portion and hybrid portion of the battery like its two different batteries but it’s not.  If you were just referring to the plug in capacity vs the regular hybrid capacity then I agree.

I will agree that EV operation for 15-30 miles is the primary reason for the plug.....BUT..... think about how quickly a regular hybrid battery discharges.  It only gets charged by regen braking.  That’s not enough juice to provide significant power for more than a few seconds whereas a PIH can do it for 18+ miles.  Maybe the hybrid mustang will have a higher capacity and recharge from the ICE even without a plug to get short bursts of performance.  But not as much as you’d get with a full plug in charge,

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11 hours ago, msm859 said:

I saw the video also by the guy in charge of design and I disagree with his priority.  

Well he has to build Aviators for all buyers not just you.  And most are not in California.  I’ll take his professional judgement about what the market wants over your individual preferences,

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