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mlhm5

2000 Mile Road Trip In A Tesla Model 3

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Once Tesla's V3 Supercharging infrastructure (250 kW peak charge rate with no splitting) is in place, the charging time for a 2,000 mile trip should drop to 2 hours total.

 

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

Once Tesla's V3 Supercharging infrastructure (250 kW peak charge rate with no splitting) is in place, the charging time for a 2,000 mile trip should drop to 2 hours total.

 

...provided the charger network is in the right places....how much is all of this going to cost?

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7 minutes ago, mlhm5 said:

I have not read much about Ford's charging network in the USA. 

https://www.plugincars.com/ford-ev-certified-dealers-hit-900-spring-126388.html

 

As of 2013, Ford had 900 EV-certified dealers, which means they have charging stations in their parking lots.

 

Unlike Tesla, Ford and several other companies in Europe are working together to build a charging network for themselves:

https://www.autonews.com/article/20180723/MOBILITY/180729957/automakers-turn-to-third-parties-to-set-up-ev-charging-networks

A more viable strategy for automakers would be to jointly fund a charging network that customers of multiple vehicle brands could use. That's already happening in Europe, where BMW, Daimler, Volkswagen and Ford Motor Co. are building a network of 400 fast-charging stations.

It won't surprise me to see something similar done here eventually.

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37 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

https://www.plugincars.com/ford-ev-certified-dealers-hit-900-spring-126388.html

As of 2013, Ford had 900 EV-certified dealers, which means they have charging stations in their parking lots.

Unlike Tesla, Ford and several other companies in Europe are working together to build a charging network for themselves:

https://www.autonews.com/article/20180723/MOBILITY/180729957/automakers-turn-to-third-parties-to-set-up-ev-charging-networks

It won't surprise me to see something similar done here eventually.

Tesla is to Apple as everyone else is to... everyone else.

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1 hour ago, mlhm5 said:

I have not read much about Ford's charging network in the USA. 

That's because Ford, like other incumbent automakers, are relying on third parties to build EV charging infrastructure for its plug-in vehicle customers. Automotive News said this.

Quote

"Charging infrastructure is one area Tesla's rivals don't fully know how to navigate.

The rest of the auto industry is steering clear of Tesla's capital- and time-intensive strategy, instead relying on a burgeoning network of chargers installed by government, utilities and private companies. It's an easier route but one that brings greater uncertainty and less control, which isn't ideal when few customers have any experience driving an EV."

Edited by rperez817

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9 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

That's because Ford, like other incumbent automakers, are relying on third parties to build EV charging infrastructure for its plug-in vehicle customers. Automotive News said this.

Right.  Where are the Ford gas stations?  The BMW gas stations?  The Toyota stations?

Did Ford build gas stations across the country for all these new buyers of Model T's?

 

No.  Other companies saw the need and stepped in.  That's what'll happen with electrics when they become more in demand.  The problem too is that Tesla has their own charging port.  You can build as many supercharges as you want, but they're only going to "feed" Teslas, not the broader market.  And nobody has used Tesla's charger design to use the argument that Tesla can become a "Shell" or "Mobil" provider of charging.

 

As I was reading about gas stations in the museum library, I began to compare their evolution with the current state of play for electric vehicle chargers. One difference is that the auto, even in its most primitive early 20th century form, was so vast an improvement over horse and buggies that everybody was desperate to buy one. In the early years, the gas station industry was racing to keep up with the rapidly growing auto industry.

The dynamic of the electric car/recharging industries is almost the opposite. A lot of people like the idea of driving an environmentally friendly vehicle, but in transportation terms, it is not an absolute necessity. Many people — most people — will likely hold back until they are convinced the infrastructure is in place to allow a driver to go anywhere without running out of juice. Thus, if the electric car industry is to succeed the way it hopes, the charging industry has to lead, not follow.

A second issue is standardization. Although Tesla is the best-known electric car on the market, it doesn’t dominate the way the Model T did. Yet the company has, rather foolishly, created a charger that can be used only with Tesla autos. For recharging in your garage, that’s fine. But for a long drive, it’s a problem. Tesla claims that its network of 1,359 charging stations “can get you anywhere you want to go.” But in a country with 115,000 gas stations, that’s not close to being enough.

 

Chris Nelder of the Rocky Mountain Institute, an expert on the EV industry, told me that most of the other companies, like Electrify America, a division of Volkswagen AG, are building stations that are compatible with any electric car aside from Tesla. For now at least, it won’t be easy finding them: Each company has a different app showing its locations, so the owner of an EV has to check five or six apps to find the nearest station.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-10-29/electric-car-companies-can-learn-from-gas-station-history

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6 hours ago, rmc523 said:

No.  Other companies saw the need and stepped in.  That's what'll happen with electrics when they become more in demand.  The problem too is that Tesla has their own charging port.  You can build as many supercharges as you want, but they're only going to "feed" Teslas, not the broader market.  And nobody has used Tesla's charger design to use the argument that Tesla can become a "Shell" or "Mobil" provider of charging.

Tesla has always been open to other automakers using its Supercharger DC Fast Charging technology. But no other automaker has taken up the offer. That's their loss. In 2018 Elon Musk said the following.

"We've always said that we're -- this is not intended to be a walled garden, and we're happy to support other automakers and let them use our Supercharger stations. They would just need to pay the share of the cost proportionate to their vehicle usage. And they would need to be able to accept our charge rate or at least -- and our connector, at least have an adaptor to our connector. So this is something we're very open to, but so far none of the other car makers have wanted to do this. But it's like not because of opposition from us. This is not a walled garden. Trying to make a meritable share."

In the U.S., there are three standards for plug-in vehicle DC fast charging.

1.) CHAdeMO (supported by Japanese automakers)

2.) CCS (supported by European, South Korean, and U.S. automakers other than Tesla)

3.) Tesla Supercharger

The third is far ahead of the other two when it comes to cumulative U.S. sales of vehicles supporting the standard.

u-s-bev-sales-cumulative-by-charging-sta

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9 hours ago, rmc523 said:

For recharging in your garage, that’s fine. But for a long drive, it’s a problem. Tesla claims that its network of 1,359 charging stations “can get you anywhere you want to go.” But in a country with 115,000 gas stations, that’s not close to being enough.

The problem with this analysis is virtually EVERY electric car owner also has their own "gas station" in their garage.   Thus, there are more than 115,000 "fueling" stations in this country.  With a range of over 300 miles, most people with BEV's never need the Superchargers.  They are primarily for those relatively few occasions people drive a greater distance.  Tesla offered anyone else to join their system - they declined.  Not sure how that will work out.  For the growth Tesla wanted they had to bite the bullet and build out the charging system - chicken - egg thing.  And as to being enough - you could probably get just about anywhere in the US with the Tesla network - certainly in California.

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9 hours ago, akirby said:

Come on guys.  Those were both way out of line.

I didn't see the original posts, other than the part of twintornados' post that you left. But considering that Ford and others are collectively spending tens of billions on BEVs, it's kind of silly to be bashing them at this point.

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4 hours ago, msm859 said:

And as to being enough - you could probably get just about anywhere in the US with the Tesla network - certainly in California.

While that may be true, it’s still not “convenient” in a lot of places in the country.   If I’m going on a trip, I am not going to plan my trip around charging stations.  And I don’t want to wait 30 minutes or more for a charge.  Until, I can find a charging station as easily as a gas station and recharge in less than 10. Inured, our primary car will not be an electric vehicle.  Most of my friends feel the same way.

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8 hours ago, msm859 said:

The problem with this analysis is virtually EVERY electric car owner also has their own "gas station" in their garage.   Thus, there are more than 115,000 "fueling" stations in this country.  With a range of over 300 miles, most people with BEV's never need the Superchargers.  They are primarily for those relatively few occasions people drive a greater distance.  Tesla offered anyone else to join their system - they declined.  Not sure how that will work out.  For the growth Tesla wanted they had to bite the bullet and build out the charging system - chicken - egg thing.  And as to being enough - you could probably get just about anywhere in the US with the Tesla network - certainly in California.

But people buy with those "few occasions" in mind, whether it's practical or not.  It's why many have an Expedition for them being alone every morning/evening commute, when a Smart car would be plenty.   Right now you have to plan a trip through cities/towns with charging stations, which can not only add a ton of time just to charge, but can take you way out of the way of the most time efficient route.  I get what you're saying about having a "gas station" in their home, and that's a legitimate point, but you're asking for a drastic shift in mentality for the buying public.  I agree it is impressive what Tesla has done with their charging network, but it's not enough to make electrics mainstream.   And there's also a reason others don't want to use Tesla's network.

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Tesla went proprietary and Nobody else in the industry is willing to pay a licensing fee to use a proprietary connector.  If they would have applied to make it an SAE standard free to use then maybe it would have been adopted, but they didn't and everyone is using one of the standard connectors.  Standards are key to interoperability and widespread acceptance.

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19 minutes ago, Flying68 said:

Tesla went proprietary and Nobody else in the industry is willing to pay a licensing fee to use a proprietary connector.  If they would have applied to make it an SAE standard free to use then maybe it would have been adopted, but they didn't and everyone is using one of the standard connectors.  Standards are key to interoperability and widespread acceptance.

Well they were not going to do that because it gave them a marketing advantage - still does.  And their connectors are the nicest, kind of an Apple thing.

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28 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

But people buy with those "few occasions" in mind, whether it's practical or not.  It's why many have an Expedition for them being alone every morning/evening commute, when a Smart car would be plenty.   Right now you have to plan a trip through cities/towns with charging stations, which can not only add a ton of time just to charge, but can take you way out of the way of the most time efficient route.  I get what you're saying about having a "gas station" in their home, and that's a legitimate point, but you're asking for a drastic shift in mentality for the buying public.  I agree it is impressive what Tesla has done with their charging network, but it's not enough to make electrics mainstream.   And there's also a reason others don't want to use Tesla's network.

Agreed.  Although I suspect for most people if you added up all the time you spend in a given year going to the gas station and filling up vs simply plugging in at night and occasionally going on long distance trips and having to charge for longer periods, you spend far more time fueling an ICE car vs the BEV.  Presently I am hoping Ford puts out a serious effort with their Aviator GT.  A 30 mile real electric range would cover 90% of all driving while having the ICE to cover the long distances.  But the future will be BEV's.  I have 2 50 amp plugs in my garage for the future.

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But if a 30 or 50 mile range PHEV covers 90% of the public’s normal driving in EV mode with the ability to go anywhere at any time using the ICE then why are pure BEVs better?

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53 minutes ago, akirby said:

But if a 30 or 50 mile range PHEV covers 90% of the public’s normal driving in EV mode with the ability to go anywhere at any time using the ICE then why are pure BEVs better?

A long range BEV (250 mi or more on a full charge) is better because with the appropriate fast charging infrastructure, drivers can have the ability to go anywhere at any time without an ICE at all. So the cost, complexity, and emissions associated with ICE are all eliminated.

Also, governments around the world are considering banning ICE powered motor vehicles in certain locations, including hybrids and PHEV that use ICE. That leaves BEV and fuel cell EV as the primary types of motor vehicles that will be able to "go anywhere at any time".

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24 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

A long range BEV (250 mi or more on a full charge) is better because with the appropriate fast charging infrastructure, drivers can have the ability to go anywhere at any time without an ICE at all. So the cost, complexity, and emissions associated with ICE are all eliminated.

Also, governments around the world are considering banning ICE powered motor vehicles in certain locations, including hybrids and PHEV that use ICE. That leaves BEV and fuel cell EV as the primary types of motor vehicles that will be able to "go anywhere at any time".

That's orders of magnitude easier to do in small countries than in the US.

50 mile range PHEVs would eliminate 90% of those terrible emissions without requiring ANY public charging infrastructure and without any range anxiety from buyers.   BEVs will continue to be a small percentage of vehicle purchases because of price and range anxiety and recharging times, but PHEVs have none of those problems.

If the goal was to come up with a mainstream solution that would solve 90% of the problem with no negatives then PHEVs would be the answer.  But that wouldn't fit the agenda.

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48 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

A long range BEV (250 mi or more on a full charge) is better because with the appropriate fast charging infrastructure, drivers can have the ability to go anywhere at any time without an ICE at all. So the cost, complexity, and emissions associated with ICE are all eliminated.

Also, governments around the world are considering banning ICE powered motor vehicles in certain locations, including hybrids and PHEV that use ICE. That leaves BEV and fuel cell EV as the primary types of motor vehicles that will be able to "go anywhere at any time".

I have to disagree.  All you are doing is SHIFTING the emissions from the tail pipe over to a power plant.  Since most power plants are still carbon based, you've only shuffled the deck.

Yes, better power plant options are coming online.  Wind, solar, etc.  But I seriously doubt any nuclear plants will get built any time soon.  Not until they can come up with a way to guarantee we won't have another Fukishima on our hands.

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12 minutes ago, 92merc said:

All you are doing is SHIFTING the emissions from the tail pipe over to a power plant. 

Good point 92merc sir. As you mentioned, there are better power plant options coming online. That should help address the problems associated with shifting emissions from tail pipe to power plant.

But even with coal and natural gas power generating stations operating today, BEV offers a couple advantages compared to ICE powered vehicles when it comes to emissions.

1.) It may be more cost effective to implement emission controls at a central point, such as a power generating station, rather than thousands or millions of motor vehicles distributed across many different locations.

2.) If a power generating station is sited away from a dense city center (which is common), eliminating the localized emissions from ICE vehicles in the city center and replacing them with BEV or FCEV which have no localized emissions makes it easier to achieve air quality goals.

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