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Powershift transmission woes haunt Ford


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28 minutes ago, J-150 said:

Will this hurt them anymore than 3.8/4.2 head gasket failures?

 

I think that could be argued either direction. During that time most cars were crap. The Asian cars weren’t really all that good, they just weren’t as bad. Ford did a warranty extension and people got them fixed for free.  

The powershift problem is that it can not be permanently fixed. It’s a design characteristic that is unacceptable in this day and time. 

Interesting point, I have a friend that bought a 2015 focus new and she hated it because of the trans problems. She got rear ended and the car was totaled. Fortunately she wasn’t hurt and had gap insurance. Her exact words were “I don’t want another Ford”. Last time I talked to her she’s in a Blue Ecosport. 

 

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10 minutes ago, fordtech1 said:

I think that could be argued either direction. During that time most cars were crap. The Asian cars weren’t really all that good, they just weren’t as bad. Ford did a warranty extension and people got them fixed for free.  

The powershift problem is that it can not be permanently fixed. It’s a design characteristic that is unacceptable in this day and time. 

Interesting point, I have a friend that bought a 2015 focus new and she hated it because of the trans problems. She got rear ended and the car was totaled. Fortunately she wasn’t hurt and had gap insurance. Her exact words were “I don’t want another Ford”. Last time I talked to her she’s in a Blue Ecosport

 

All anyone expects is for Ford to support its customers, I can’t believe they let this drag on and on.

Focus had a global MCE in 2015 that brought a change to 1.5 EB and proper 6-speed automatic, surprised and disappointed that Ford NA didn’t take that opportunity to switch Focus to the 6F 25 (?) even if still with 2.0 DI

There were things Ford could have and should have done but was just too lazy/ cheap to think about all the customers they stitched up in not just  the past four years but also the four years before that... eight years FFS throw the book at them and set an example for manufacturers thinking of doing an end run around lemon laws

Edited by jpd80
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1 hour ago, YT90SC said:

That's like trading syphilis for herpes. 

At least it has a real transmission. So far she really likes it.  

I thought she was going to end up with a Kia or Nissan or Mazda. Actually I was betting on Nissan or Kia since they specialize on sub prime lending. I had a neighbor that gets a new Altima every 3 years when it’s tires are shot and the corners are beat off of it. 

Edited by fordtech1
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9 hours ago, YT90SC said:

That's like trading syphilis for herpes. 

At least you can pass on an Ecosport to someone else, with a Powershift, you're wedlocked until one of you dies.

Edited by jpd80
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15 hours ago, J-150 said:

Will this hurt them anymore than 3.8/4.2 head gasket failures?

 

Added that to the vehicles that had AX4S or AX4N (4F50N) transmissions and it is AMAZING that Ford did not lose more customers.

I once challenged a manager in an "all hands" meeting about the reliability of those transmissions.  He flat out denied there were any issues !  Later I realized that this was because Ford did not track any failures of part out of warranty.  Their goal was to hit 50,001 miles.  After that they did not care.

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14 hours ago, fordtech1 said:

The powershift problem is that it can not be permanently fixed. It’s a design characteristic that is unacceptable in this day and time. 

At least one engineer told me that they could do a software patch that would fix the issue, but clutch life would be dramatically shortened.  IIRC, the solution was to slip the clutch as soon as any transition from "power on to power off" or vice versa was detected (slight accelerator pedal position change).  A tricky maneuver because to much slipping would cause a "runaway" or lack of engine breaking..

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14 hours ago, jpd80 said:

All anyone expects is for Ford to support its customers, I can’t believe they let this drag on and on.

It's completely believable (unfortunately) - and Ford is not unique in this respect. There's not a single auto company that would do differently. Look at sainted Honda and their handling of the issue with their 1.5 turbo engine.

The handling of these issues is business calculus, and whatever results in the lowest estimated cost to the company is what gets done. The welfare of the customer and other such intangibles are secondary considerations.

Edited by Harley Lover
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14 hours ago, fordtech1 said:

At least it has a real transmission. So far she really likes it.  

I thought she was going to end up with a Kia or Nissan or Mazda. Actually I was betting on Nissan or Kia since they specialize on sub prime lending. I had a neighbor that gets a new Altima every 3 years when it’s tires are shot and the corners are beat off of it. 

To each their own. I worry about the long term reliability of the 6F15. I haven't had to party pack one yet, like every single 6F35 that rolls in.    

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3 hours ago, theoldwizard said:

Added that to the vehicles that had AX4S or AX4N (4F50N) transmissions and it is AMAZING that Ford did not lose more customers.

I once challenged a manager in an "all hands" meeting about the reliability of those transmissions.  He flat out denied there were any issues !  Later I realized that this was because Ford did not track any failures of part out of warranty.  Their goal was to hit 50,001 miles.  After that they did not care.

LOTS and I mean LOTS of those "transmission failures" were misdiagnosed due to lack of knowledge.  

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52 minutes ago, YT90SC said:

To each their own. I worry about the long term reliability of the 6F15. I haven't had to party pack one yet, like every single 6F35 that rolls in.    

I can agree with that. However, for a customers standpoint. That trans feels normal when working correctly and can be “fixed” compared to the DCT. Fortunately the 6f35 has been updated to where the failures are slowing down for us. 2009 escapes where  an embarrassment. We had 6F35s for months and no parts or units to fix with. Lots of tow behind rv units melted down. At least currently the 6f35 is cheap to build and has a party pack. Not sure about the 6f15, haven’t had much experience yet. 

As we have discussed, too much heat and too much torque converter useage. My 15 escape has that damn harsh 2-3 up shift, mainly when cold, but I’m waiting on it to give me a good reason to party pack it. 2.0 awd isn’t much of a party to do. 

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58 minutes ago, YT90SC said:

LOTS and I mean LOTS of those "transmission failures" were misdiagnosed due to lack of knowledge.  

Cooling was a big issue wasn’t it?. IIRC there was a fluid flow restriction. That was a 30k service trans at the longest interval. Adding an aftermarket cooler allegedly expanded the life. The oem cooler was one tube with fins on it and a radiator side tank. 

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6 hours ago, theoldwizard said:

Added that to the vehicles that had AX4S or AX4N (4F50N) transmissions and it is AMAZING that Ford did not lose more customers.

A relative of mine experienced that transaxle in a Freestar. She now drives a RAV4.

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7 hours ago, theoldwizard said:

At least one engineer told me that they could do a software patch that would fix the issue, but clutch life would be dramatically shortened.  IIRC, the solution was to slip the clutch as soon as any transition from "power on to power off" or vice versa was detected (slight accelerator pedal position change).  A tricky maneuver because to much slipping would cause a "runaway" or lack of engine breaking..

A lack of engine braking, perhaps...but almost certainly leading to engine breaking!  ?

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On 7/3/2019 at 1:06 PM, fordtech1 said:

Cooling was a big issue wasn’t it?. IIRC there was a fluid flow restriction. That was a 30k service trans at the longest interval. Adding an aftermarket cooler allegedly expanded the life. The oem cooler was one tube with fins on it and a radiator side tank. 

The whole family could benefit from more cooling. AXOD and AXOD-E needed it worst. Fluid flow to the planetaries and final drive were abysmal. (There is an aftermarket fluid dam for those that works VERY well) But those had a host of issues that slowly were addressed, and the majority were once it became the AX4S and AX4N. The primary issues with the later ones I saw were oil pump drive hubs in the converter and the N liked to stack shifts and break the weld on the rear sun shell. Both resulted in "Customer states quit moving" and a lot of remans or full rebuilds wrongly sold. But I wholeheartedly agree that 30k services were a great idea.  

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On 7/3/2019 at 12:00 PM, fordtech1 said:

I can agree with that. However, for a customers standpoint. That trans feels normal when working correctly and can be “fixed” compared to the DCT. Fortunately the 6f35 has been updated to where the failures are slowing down for us. 2009 escapes where  an embarrassment. We had 6F35s for months and no parts or units to fix with. Lots of tow behind rv units melted down. At least currently the 6f35 is cheap to build and has a party pack. Not sure about the 6f15, haven’t had much experience yet. 

As we have discussed, too much heat and too much torque converter useage. My 15 escape has that damn harsh 2-3 up shift, mainly when cold, but I’m waiting on it to give me a good reason to party pack it. 2.0 awd isn’t much of a party to do. 

I have a '14 with this same condition, mainly when cold as well. Occasionally, it exhibits a rough 3-2 downshift as well. These characteristics have been experienced since it was new. It now has 64,000 miles on it. What's the "party pack?" Thanks.

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26 minutes ago, Alex D. said:

I have a '14 with this same condition, mainly when cold as well. Occasionally, it exhibits a rough 3-2 downshift as well. These characteristics have been experienced since it was new. It now has 64,000 miles on it. What's the "party pack?" Thanks.

 Party Pack ® - converter, pump, valve body, direct drum, clutch tower, LPC and TCC solenoids, seal kit and revised filter. 

 

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3 minutes ago, fordtech1 said:

 Party Pack ® - converter, pump, valve body, direct drum, clutch tower, LPC and TCC solenoids, seal kit and revised filter. 

 

You mean that's all? Haha.

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2 hours ago, YT90SC said:

The whole family could benefit from more cooling. AXOD and AXOD-E needed it worst. Fluid flow to the planetaries and final drive were abysmal. (There is an aftermarket fluid dam for those that works VERY well) But those had a host of issues that slowly were addressed, and the majority were once it became the AX4S and AX4N. The primary issues with the later ones I saw were oil pump drive hubs in the converter and the N liked to stack shifts and break the weld on the rear sun shell. Both resulted in "Customer states quit moving" and a lot of remans or full rebuilds wrongly sold. But I wholeheartedly agree that 30k services were a great idea.  

You said the N liked to stack shifts. Isn’t that a the definition of the N verses the S. S is synchronized so shifts apply and release where as N is non synchronized so it’s just apply apply apply through the gears? I forgot about the sun gear breaking. Also was it the forward piston with the molded seal that would roll and bark the tires during shifts? 

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17 hours ago, fordtech1 said:

You said the N liked to stack shifts. Isn’t that a the definition of the N verses the S. S is synchronized so shifts apply and release where as N is non synchronized so it’s just apply apply apply through the gears? I forgot about the sun gear breaking. Also was it the forward piston with the molded seal that would roll and bark the tires during shifts? 

Brain fart. You're right. It wasn't exactly a "stack" on an N. I think the forward or main control would wear or, like you said, roll a seal, and the 3-1 or 3-2-1 would be harsh and hurt the shell. It always felt like a "tie -up" or "stack" in my ass-o-meter. They were shit parts like the TS-5 coast drums, but that would accelerate the failure. I'm probably out in left field about what happened though. Never saw a whole lot of them vs AXOD/E forwards that would crack. 

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On 7/5/2019 at 2:02 PM, YT90SC said:

The whole family could benefit from more cooling. AXOD and AXOD-E needed it worst. Fluid flow to the planetaries and final drive were abysmal. (There is an aftermarket fluid dam for those that works VERY well) But those had a host of issues that slowly were addressed, and the majority were once it became the AX4S and AX4N. The primary issues with the later ones I saw were oil pump drive hubs in the converter and the N liked to stack shifts and break the weld on the rear sun shell. Both resulted in "Customer states quit moving" and a lot of remans or full rebuilds wrongly sold. But I wholeheartedly agree that 30k services were a great idea.  

Would that 30K service include fresh fluid?

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