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2020 Escape starts at $25,980

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22 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

Not cheap, Value. Can't just be cheap. Americans buyers will pay slightly more if they feel they are getting a better product.

Plus consumer subconscious preferences come into play, even if its not based in fact with the cheapest thing "it is missing something, not as safe or not as of high quality as this one that is slightly more" It is the reason why the cheapest wine on the menu is usually the same cost to the restaurant as the next few that are more expensive to it. Majority of people will  think I'm not taking the cheaper one I'll take the slightly more expensive one that is still in my budget as its tastes better. 

I think in the lower end of the market it's strictly price.   As you go higher what you say is true.   But when you look at a particular market if one model is significantly cheaper than the others I can almost guarantee that will be the market leader in sales.

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4 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

If people use their turn signals the lane keeping system isn't annoying. 
 

Let’s agree to disagree.  There are a number of roads where I need to either put the tires on the white line or cross the center line to avoid bad spots or potholes.  Since the lane keeping system doesn’t like it when I do that, I keep it turned off.  I also go through a few construction zones that the lane keeping system doesn’t like. 

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23 minutes ago, akirby said:

I think in the lower end of the market it's strictly price.   As you go higher what you say is true.   But when you look at a particular market if one model is significantly cheaper than the others I can almost guarantee that will be the market leader in sales.

Look at Honda with the Civic, VW with the Jetta, and even the inroads the Koran's made in the market. When they were cheap or went cheap people didn't buy them. When they added value to them is when sales picked up. The Civic/Corolla/Accord/Camry/CRV/RAV4 etc are not the lowest price entries in the market they proved the best value for the money in the market and that is where shoppers go. 

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

Many Blue Oval Forums members understand it. But U.S. consumers in general probably don't. Getting those people to accept a 3-cylinder engine in an Escape will require good sales and marketing techniques by Ford and Ford dealers.

GM has the same challenge with its new 2.7L 4-cylinder engine for 2019 Silverado and Sierra. It's one of the most modern and advanced pickup truck gasoline engines in the industry. But a lot of U.S. pickup truck consumers won't even consider it because the number of cylinders isn't 8 or 6.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Truck buyers know and care about engines, and from what I recall, performance of the 4cyl isn't great.

The majority of Escape buyers don't know or care.  And for those that do, tell them what it is after they drive it.

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2 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

Look at Honda with the Civic, VW with the Jetta, and even the inroads the Koran's made in the market. When they were cheap or went cheap people didn't buy them. When they added value to them is when sales picked up. The Civic/Corolla/Accord/Camry/CRV/RAV4 etc are not the lowest price entries in the market they proved the best value for the money in the market and that is where shoppers go. 

Hondas are a little different, but Camry and Corolla have always been cheap.  At one time Camry ATPs were $4K lower than Fusion.

The point is the lower the price the more potential buyers and price is THE major factor for a large number of buyers out there.   That's why Fusion and Focus SEs were so popular and Titaniums are scarce.

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

GM has the same challenge with its new 2.7L 4-cylinder engine for 2019 Silverado and Sierra. It's one of the most modern and advanced pickup truck gasoline engines in the industry. But a lot of U.S. pickup truck consumers won't even consider it because the number of cylinders isn't 8 or 6.

And the fuel economy is terrible 

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

GM has the same challenge with its new 2.7L 4-cylinder engine for 2019 Silverado and Sierra. It's one of the most modern and advanced pickup truck gasoline engines in the industry....

Image result for now we all laugh

Edited by twintornados

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55 minutes ago, akirby said:

Hondas are a little different, but Camry and Corolla have always been cheap.  At one time Camry ATPs were $4K lower than Fusion.

The point is the lower the price the more potential buyers and price is THE major factor for a large number of buyers out there.   That's why Fusion and Focus SEs were so popular and Titaniums are scarce.

I don't mean four or five thousands of dollars difference, I mean like $1,000 or $1,500. Also With Ford packaging it was far cheaper to just get a loaded SE than it was a Titanium and they would be equipped almost exactly the same way. 

ATP's are total Bull S***. A $25000 Camry with a $750 rebate will show a Transaction price of $25,000. A $27,000 Fusion with a $4000 rebate will show a Transaction price of $27,000. In the end Toyota sold the car for $24,250 and Ford sold the car for $23,000.

Edited by jasonj80

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47 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

And the fuel economy is terrible 

That's the biggest issue.   It's worse than Ford's 2.7L V6.

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2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

Many Blue Oval Forums members understand it. But U.S. consumers in general probably don't. Getting those people to accept a 3-cylinder engine in an Escape will require good sales and marketing techniques by Ford and Ford dealers.

GM has the same challenge with its new 2.7L 4-cylinder engine for 2019 Silverado and Sierra. It's one of the most modern and advanced pickup truck gasoline engines in the industry. But a lot of U.S. pickup truck consumers won't even consider it because the number of cylinders isn't 8 or 6.

I've actually driven the new Focus with the 1.5 I-3 EB and it's got plenty of poke, loses nothing to the just superseded 1.5 EB Focus.

GM's 2.7 I-4T while a remarkable feat is in a null point where buyers will just go buy a 5.3 V8 or a 4.3 V6 because that's what they do, and the GM 3.0 I-6T diesel will be the same, just like the Ford V6 powerstroke, lots of fanfare but few sales. 

2.7 EB conquered truck buyers years ago and changed their POV , it stole the market leaving scraps for diesels and I-4Ts

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12 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The bigger 1.5 I-3 EB has a nice muffled growl to it  under acceleration and gives away nothing to the 1.5 I-4 EB.

If the Euro numbers hold, the 1.5 EB 3 banger will be within 2 HP of the previous 4 cylinder, but gain 10-15 ft/lbs of torque.  And with cylinder deactivation, it should get better mileage.

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36 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

I don't mean four or five thousands of dollars difference, I mean like $1,000 or $1,500. Also With Ford packaging it was far cheaper to just get a loaded SE than it was a Titanium and they would be equipped almost exactly the same way. 

ATP's are total Bull S***. A $25000 Camry with a $750 rebate will show a Transaction price of $25,000. A $27,000 Fusion with a $4000 rebate will show a Transaction price of $27,000. In the end Toyota sold the car for $24,250 and Ford sold the car for $23,000.

Really?  ATPs don't include rebates?   That's ridiculous.   At the time I don't think Fusion had big rebates but point taken.

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1 minute ago, 92merc said:

If the Euro numbers hold, the 1.5 EB 3 banger will be within 2 HP of the previous 4 cylinder, but gain 10-15 ft/lbs of torque.  And with cylinder deactivation, it should get better mileage.

And as was stated before, 99% of Escape buyers don't know or care about the engine as long as it has decent power and good fuel economy.

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How have times changed?

The 2019 Ranger’s 2.3L four-cylinder EcoBoost engine, producing 310lb-ft of torque and 270hp, has nearly as much torque and is up 30hp on the first generation Ford Lightning pickup’s 5.8L V8.

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38 minutes ago, akirby said:

And as was stated before, 99% of Escape buyers don't know or care about the engine as long as it has decent power and good fuel economy.

I agree.  I'm just stating that the average buyer won't be able tell the difference between the old 1.5 and the new.

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59 minutes ago, akirby said:

Really?  ATPs don't include rebates?   That's ridiculous.   At the time I don't think Fusion had big rebates but point taken.

Anything to the consumer no, you can always request a rebate be issued in the form of the check to you. (Which is smart to do if you can get 0% interest and still get $4,000 cash back) 

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2 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

The Civic/Corolla/Accord/Camry/CRV/RAV4 etc are not the lowest price entries in the market they proved the best value for the money in the market and that is where shoppers go. 

Well said jasonj80 sir. Those vehicles are a great value not because their initial purchase prices are particularly cheap, but because ownership costs such as fuel, depreciation, repairs, maintenance, etc., are lower than other models in the respective classes.

Depreciation/resale value is where the difference is most stark. For example, according to Intellichoice after 5 years a 2019 Honda CR-V will retain 52% of its original new purchase price. For 2019 Toyota RAV4 the figure is 54%. 2019 Ford Escape only retains 45%.

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1 hour ago, Anthony said:

How have times changed?

The 2019 Ranger’s 2.3L four-cylinder EcoBoost engine, producing 310lb-ft of torque and 270hp, has nearly as much torque and is up 30hp on the first generation Ford Lightning pickup’s 5.8L V8.

Buhbuhbuh buh V8

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34 minutes ago, 92merc said:

I agree.  I'm just stating that the average buyer won't be able tell the difference between the old 1.5 and the new.

That's the point I was trying to make earlier (I think maybe in another thread), same size engine and comparable efficiency, if not better. Average Joe consumer won't notice or care. 

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1 hour ago, Anthony said:

How have times changed?

The 2019 Ranger’s 2.3L four-cylinder EcoBoost engine, producing 310lb-ft of torque and 270hp, has nearly as much torque and is up 30hp on the first generation Ford Lightning pickup’s 5.8L V8.

My 1986 5.0L Mustang GT had 200 HP and 265 lb-ft of torque.  First year they used fuel injection.....real state-of-the-art stuff.

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Smart Phone connectivity is now #1 priority with new car buyers, not "does it got a V8?". {I know it's not a fact, just seems like that's all people brag about}  ;-)

Edited by 630land

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14 minutes ago, 630land said:

Smart Phone connectivity is now #1 priority with new car buyers, not "does it got a V8?".

This is one area of competitive advantage for 2020 Escape compared to 2019 RAV4. SYNC 3 in Escape SE and above supports both Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. Toyota's Entune 3.0 system in 2019 RAV4 doesn't support Android Auto, only Apple CarPlay. Maybe Toyota will add Android Auto support for 2020 model year.

Plus the Ford AppLink system seems to be more reliable than Toyota Entune 3.0 App Suite Connect.

Edited by rperez817

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3 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

I don't mean four or five thousands of dollars difference, I mean like $1,000 or $1,500. Also With Ford packaging it was far cheaper to just get a loaded SE than it was a Titanium and they would be equipped almost exactly the same way. 

ATP's are total Bull S***. A $25000 Camry with a $750 rebate will show a Transaction price of $25,000. A $27,000 Fusion with a $4000 rebate will show a Transaction price of $27,000. In the end Toyota sold the car for $24,250 and Ford sold the car for $23,000.

The term "rebate" has a specific meaning. It is almost always means a reduction of sales price.

If the rebate is a net reduction of sales price, it reduces the transaction price. In your example, the Camry ATP is 24,250 and the Fusion ATP is $23,000.

If the incentives are applied after sales price, for example, trade in assistance towards down payment on new car, or lease credit towards cap reduction, it is not part of ATP. But those things are not called rebates. 0% interest also falls in this category of incentives that doesn't affect ATP.

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18 minutes ago, bzcat said:

The term "rebate" has a specific meaning. It is almost always means a reduction of sales price.

If the rebate is a net reduction of sales price, it reduces the transaction price. In your example, the Camry ATP is 24,250 and the Fusion ATP is $23,000.

If the incentives are applied after sales price, for example, trade in assistance towards down payment on new car, or lease credit towards cap reduction, it is not part of ATP. But those things are not called rebates. 0% interest also falls in this category of incentives that doesn't affect ATP.

In GA the rebates are applied by the dealer as an additional down payment and you still pay tax on it, so it makes sense that it’s not deducted from ATP now that I think about it.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

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8 minutes ago, bzcat said:

The term "rebate" has a specific meaning. It is almost always means a reduction of sales price.

If the rebate is a net reduction of sales price, it reduces the transaction price. In your example, the Camry ATP is 24,250 and the Fusion ATP is $23,000.

If the incentives are applied after sales price, for example, trade in assistance towards down payment on new car, or lease credit towards cap reduction, it is not part of ATP. But those things are not called rebates. 0% interest also falls in this category of incentives that doesn't affect ATP.

Rebates are applied after the sales price. It is why you pay sales tax on the purchase before them. A factory savings package would be factored into the ATP but a rebate is not. Rebate is something you get after you purchase a good. 

I could go in today and buy and Edge with a purchase price of $35000 that has $3500 in rebates and request those in cash. The transaction price would be $35000, and Ford/dealer would send me a check for $3500 to deposit in my bank. If I decided to apply those rebates to my purchase I would write a check for $31,500 and Ford/dealer would pay $3500 to itself to make the $35,000 whole. Either way the transaction is $35,000.

It gets even more complicated when you look at leases. 

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