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mlhm5

Why Ford Will Be A Bit Player In The EV Market

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IMO, the underlying obstacle for Ford in the BEV market is they just do not have their ducks in a row to start selling high volume BEVs. Without the ability to yet get their hands on much larger quantities of battery cells and manufacture them into packs at a favorable rate so as to make reasonable margins on their sales of BEVs, there is no incentive for them to invest any more to leverage greater demand (a supercharger network) beyond fulfilling compliance. Secondly, a supercharger network is absolutely essential if you want to go on a trip longer than 40% of your range. Without such a network, a Ford BEV will be a commuter car. Tesla has 10,000 superchargers worldwide and in this space, it's a race for remaining prime real estate and the time wasted dealing with lengthy permitting due to local politics.

Edited by mlhm5

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...and Tesla is offering any manufacturer access to the Superchargers yet no one has stepped up to do that...I wonder why?

 

PS: I guess it's a good thing you started out your statement with "IMO"....

Edited by twintornados

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If Tesla can't make money on higher volume BEVs then why do you think anybody else could?

Ford isn't in any worse shape than anyone else.  They're just not willing to sacrifice profit to make a PR statement.

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I saw a study of the manufacturing of one of the Tesla's.  I want to say Model S, but I'm not sure.  Long story short, Tesla made a lot of the parts of the car out of 5 different pieces which are later connected together at assembly.  The reviewers stated that larger volume companies would have made that out of a single part.  Cheaper to build that way and quicker to assemble.  Tesla has a lot to be desired for mass assembly and design.  I wouldn't be holding them up to the gold standard.  I would say their Model 3 issues reflect that.

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Man, mlhm5 is like herpes-it goes away for awhile, then pops back up when you least expect it!

I also wonder if he's a troll for Tesla-they are getting beat up by the press as of late with gloom and doom and them finally reaching an oh shit point (as we've been speculating about for the past 24 plus months) and boom "he" poops up back here again after a very long absence 

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I guess you are unaware of the over 2000 fast charging stations in the US and Canada that are publicly available to people with non-Tesla EVs like the Ford Focus ev.  They don't stick out like Tesla charging stations since the are located at gas stations , hotels, shopping centers, and car dealerships.

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Full EV I would agree with, but BEV, and PHEV I think they are in the game BIG time......more specifically, ahead of GM and Dodge/ Ram....and I would have to think there will be more of a market for vehicles that don't have range anxiety than for those that do....you could make a 500 mile EV, but in hot ( A/C ) or cold weather theres always that thought in the back of your mind that you do NOT have any form of limp home mode.

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37 minutes ago, 92merc said:

I saw a study of the manufacturing of one of the Tesla's.  I want to say Model S, but I'm not sure.  Long story short, Tesla made a lot of the parts of the car out of 5 different pieces which are later connected together at assembly.  The reviewers stated that larger volume companies would have made that out of a single part.  Cheaper to build that way and quicker to assemble.  Tesla has a lot to be desired for mass assembly and design.  I wouldn't be holding them up to the gold standard.  I would say their Model 3 issues reflect that.

I remember that. It was Model 3

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43 minutes ago, Deanh said:

Full EV I would agree with, but BEV, and PHEV I think they are in the game BIG time......more specifically, ahead of GM and Dodge/ Ram....and I would have to think there will be more of a market for vehicles that don't have range anxiety than for those that do....you could make a 500 mile EV, but in hot ( A/C ) or cold weather theres always that thought in the back of your mind that you do NOT have any form of limp home mode.

Isn't BEV a "full EV"?

---

I believe Ford was/is working to install chargers at its dealerships too.

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3 hours ago, mlhm5 said:

Tesla has 10,000 superchargers worldwide and in this space, it's a race for remaining prime real estate and the time wasted dealing with lengthy permitting due to local politics.

 

3 hours ago, twintornados said:

...and Tesla is offering any manufacturer access to the Superchargers yet no one has stepped up to do that...I wonder why?

Business model of the incumbent automakers is selling gasoline and diesel powered vehicles. The concept of investing in the infrastructure that enables customers to operate their vehicles is new to them.

Tesla is the only major global automaker that isn't tied to internal combustion engines right now. Their mission statement "to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy" is unique in the auto industry. That's why Tesla is so far ahead of everyone else when it comes to EV charging infrastructure. 

Other automakers want to have the benefit of Tesla's supercharger network, but don't want to pay for it.

Edited by rperez817

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Everyone has an opinion and you having one is fine. I don't agree with it.

What happens when FCA, NISSAN, or GM buys Tesla before they go belly up?  Tesla can't make a profit without cooking the books to do so.

Honestly, Ford has the most pragmatic approach right now. You don't have to go all in with hybrids, like you do with electrics.  The buying public is going to have to warm up to hybrids before they will embrace electrics.

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18 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Business model of the incumbent automakers is selling gasoline and diesel powered vehicles. The concept of investing in the infrastructure that enables customers to operate their vehicles is new to them.

Tesla is the only major global automaker that isn't tied to internal combustion engines right now. Their mission statement "to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy" is unique in the auto industry. That's why Tesla is so far ahead of everyone else when it comes to EV charging infrastructure. 

Other automakers want to have the benefit of Tesla's supercharger network, but don't want to pay for it.

The only example given by Tesla is how to lose money. And as the events of this week show, the gig is almost up.

Tesla have not proven that the business case exists for an auto company to provide charging infrastructure for BEV's, unless the goal is to lose money. Germany, for example, is planning to build out a charging infrastructure to support its auto industry (along with other industrial concerns).

The bleatings of Tesla acolytes aside, the purpose of the auto companies is to make money. Without profit for reinvestment, the future cannot be secured. Unless you're Tesla, and rely on your carnival barker CEO to continue to find gullible investors to part with their money. Again, that gig might be up.

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1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

Isn't BEV a "full EV"?

---

I believe Ford was/is working to install chargers at its dealerships too.

SORRY, you are correct, got ahead of myself, meant to say Plug in hybrids and Hybrids....basically where you DONT get stranded looking for a Charging station. We already have several chargers on site at the dealer....whether the receptacle will remain the same is the only question I have.

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36 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Business model of the incumbent automakers is selling gasoline and diesel powered vehicles. The concept of investing in the infrastructure that enables customers to operate their vehicles is new to them.

Tesla is the only major global automaker that isn't tied to internal combustion engines right now. Their mission statement "to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy" is unique in the auto industry. That's why Tesla is so far ahead of everyone else when it comes to EV charging infrastructure. 

Other automakers want to have the benefit of Tesla's supercharger network, but don't want to pay for it.

might be to do with having a Universal plug that is standard across the industry...something that personally I deem necessary...

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FYI, Ford has partnered with several car companies in Europe for superchargers and plans to have 400 by the end of 2020, however, no announcement has been made for the USA. IMO, European consumers are far more likely to readily adopt electric vehicles than Americans if the infrastructure to support them exists. 1) Fuel prices are high in Europe $6.30+ a gallon, and there is more public concern about pollution, especially after the Volkswagen lie. 

Ford along with other car makers want the US government to pay for the supercharging stations in the USA with tax money. - https://www.thestreet.com/investing/tesla-supercharger-network-is-booming-14594222

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42 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Business model of the incumbent automakers is selling gasoline and diesel powered vehicles. The concept of investing in the infrastructure that enables customers to operate their vehicles is new to them.

Tesla is the only major global automaker that isn't tied to internal combustion engines right now. Their mission statement "to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy" is unique in the auto industry. That's why Tesla is so far ahead of everyone else when it comes to EV charging infrastructure. 

Other automakers want to have the benefit of Tesla's supercharger network, but don't want to pay for it.

They're "so far ahead of everyone else" because they know people wouldn't buy their products if they couldn't go anywhere with them.

5 minutes ago, Deanh said:

SORRY, you are correct, got ahead of myself, meant to say Plug in hybrids and Hybrids....basically where you DONT get stranded looking for a Charging station. We already have several chargers on site at the dealer....whether the receptacle will remain the same is the only question I have.

Ah yes, that makes sense now.

4 minutes ago, Deanh said:

might be to do with having a Universal plug that is standard across the industry...something that personally I deem necessary...

I agree and meant to put this in my last post too - I think it's crazy each company has their own charger design; until there's a universal charger, there can't be any sort of truly nationwide charging network/infrastructure.  It's not realistic to expect each brand to develop their own nationwide charging network to accommodate their specific plug type.  I suppose "neutral" parties like gas stations that install chargers could have changeable "nozzles" but that's also ridiculous.

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52 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

...Tesla is the only major global automaker ....

Dude....you almost made me spray my coffee all over my terminal from laughing so hard....

image.png.c3ab252887af946a8254763da21affcd.png

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3 hours ago, twintornados said:

...and Tesla is offering any manufacturer access to the Superchargers yet no one has stepped up to do that...I wonder why?

 

PS: I guess it's a good thing you started out your statement with "IMO"....

 

49 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Business model of the incumbent automakers is selling gasoline and diesel powered vehicles. The concept of investing in the infrastructure that enables customers to operate their vehicles is new to them.

Tesla is the only major global automaker that isn't tied to internal combustion engines right now. Their mission statement "to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy" is unique in the auto industry. That's why Tesla is so far ahead of everyone else when it comes to EV charging infrastructure. 

Other automakers want to have the benefit of Tesla's supercharger network, but don't want to pay for it.

Norway provides a window into what the not-too-distant future of EVs could look like; in June 2019, for the first time anywhere, more electric vehicles were registered than gas or diesel powered cars. Everyone has range anxiety, however, if there is no problem with finding a Supercharger every 100 miles or less (planned for Europe) then the move to EV could be a lot easier. MB firmly believes the future is EV. I am not saying Tesla will win, however,  if you are the only player whose owners do not have range anxiety it sure helps.

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30 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

The only example given by Tesla is how to lose money. And as the events of this week show, the gig is almost up.

Tesla have not proven that the business case exists for an auto company to provide charging infrastructure for BEV's, unless the goal is to lose money. Germany, for example, is planning to build out a charging infrastructure to support its auto industry (along with other industrial concerns).

The bleatings of Tesla acolytes aside, the purpose of the auto companies is to make money. Without profit for reinvestment, the future cannot be secured. Unless you're Tesla, and rely on your carnival barker CEO to continue to find gullible investors to part with their money. Again, that gig might be up.

MB says the future is EV. Having a PHEV with a 34 mile battery range, IMO is just stupid. Solve the range anxiety issue through a network of superchargers and people will buy EVs. In Europe Ionity which is a partnership of several car companies including Ford plans to have supercharging stations 75 miles apart. - https://www.electrive.com/2019/03/21/ionity-so-far-63-in-operation-52-being-installed/

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EVs are also heavily subsidized in Norway.  Obviously people will pick them if they have a variety of tax breaks, etc. to do so.

The quote thing isn't working properly, so I'll post the rest below.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/04/world/norway-zero-emission-vehicles-trnd/index.html

Norway has implemented a number of incentives to encourage people to buy electric cars, according to the Norwegian Electric Vehicle Association. Zero-emission cars don't pay the 25% Value Added Tax (VAT) and are exempt from Norway's carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxide and weight taxes imposed on gas and diesel vehicles. They also get discounts on parking, toll roads and ferries.
Edited by rmc523

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You not only need to have the charging infrastructure (in every city, not just every 100 miles).  it needs to take about 10-15 minutes to get another 200+ miles of range before the average driver would accept that as an only vehicle.   

PHEVs give you the best of both worlds - 30-50 miles on EV which is enough for most commutes and around town driving with no range anxiety and no extended stops.

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Just now, mlhm5 said:

MB says the future is EV.

 

They are, but they aren't going to be for another 10-15-20 years

 

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https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/

Norwegian EV incentives:

  • No purchase/import taxes (1990-)
  • Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-)
  • No annual road tax (1996-)
  • No charges on toll roads or ferries (1997- 2017).
  • Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles (2018-)
  • Maximum 50% of the total amount on toll roads (2019)
  • Free municipal parking (1999- 2017)
  • Parking fee for EVs was introduced locally with an upper limit of a maximum 50% of the full price (2018-)
  • Access to bus lanes (2005-).
  • New rules allow local authorities to limit the access to only include EVs that carry one or more passengers (2016)
  • 50 % reduced company car tax (2000-2018).
  • Company car tax reduction reduced to 40% (2018-)
  • Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015)
  • Fiscal compensation for the scrapping of fossil vans when converting to a zero-emission van (2018)
  • Allowing holders of driver licence class B to drive electric vans class C1 (light lorries) up to 2450 kg (2019) 
Edited by rmc523

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12 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

They're "so far ahead of everyone else" because they know people wouldn't buy their products if they couldn't go anywhere with them.

The incumbent automakers who sell BEV know that too. But up until very recently, the non-Tesla BEV models have mostly regulatory compliance products (ZEV mandates and the like). The overall customer experience has almost been an afterthought.  

Fortunately, that's been changing. Most automakers now acknowledge that electrified vehicles are the future, and they're investing on the product design side of it. Eventually, they'll need to invest more in EV charging infrastructure also.

2 minutes ago, mlhm5 said:

Norway provides a window into what the not-too-distant future of EVs could look like; in June 2019, for the first time anywhere, more electric vehicles were registered than gas or diesel powered cars. Everyone has range anxiety, however, if there is no problem with finding a Supercharger every 100 miles or less (planned for Europe) then the move to EV could be a lot easier. MB firmly believes the future is EV. I am not saying Tesla will win, however,  if you are the only player whose owners do not have range anxiety it sure helps.

Yes sir, Norway set a record in March 2019. 58.4% EV market share among new car registrations that month. https://ofv.no/registreringsstatistikk

Tesla dominates EV market growth in both Norway and the U.S.

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