Jump to content

California regulator threatens ban on gasoline engines


Recommended Posts

36 minutes ago, msm859 said:

I'll take your comment about us Californians as a compliment.  California only has 1 small coal power plant left.  By 2026 it will be gone, as well as not allowing ANY electricity to be imported that is produced by coal.  I have solar panels on my roof that supply almost 100% of my electricity.  Last year I added more along with a heat pump water heater for my domestic hot water - further reducing my natural gas use. For heat in the winter I have radiant heat along with a boiler that is so efficient it vents out of PVC pipe.   I am primarily on this forum because of the new Lincoln Aviator PHEV coming out and plan to add even more solar panels to feed it.- or some other PHEV.  There is nothing wrong with pushing green.  It is one of the reasons California on its own is the 5th largest economy in the world.

California is the 5th largest economy in the world due to its pushing green? Baloney! Oil has been a big factor in Propelling California to its current economic position. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ugh.... I'm so conflicted. On one hand, I love state rights.

 

On the other, I don't know how I feel about them using their power in such an anti-liberty and authortian clusterfuck.

Is California the modern day Great Britian? Trying to tax and extort America to pay for its war on pollution?

Edited by probowler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, probowler said:

Ugh.... I'm so conflicted. On one hand, I love state rights.

 

On the other, I don't know how I feel about them using their power in such an anti-liberty and authortian clusterfuck.

Is California the modern day Great Britian? Trying to tax and extort America to pay for its war on pollution?

California's laws are only for Californians.  Some other states have voluntarily adopted our standards set by CARB. So not sure how we are trying to tax and extort America.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, msm859 said:

California's laws are only for Californians.  Some other states have voluntarily adopted our standards set by CARB. So not sure how we are trying to tax and extort America.

I have a love hate relationship with California. I love the land and what it has to offer, as well as some good people, but hate its politics. Make no mistake, if California politicians had the ability to push their agendas onto the rest of the country they would. Thankfully they can’t. The exception to that would be some awful case law that has come out of the 9th circuit that has established some bad precedent for the rest of the country at the federal level. Of course the 7th circuit has done some real doozies too, so you aren’t alone. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

Yes sir. In this case, China's public policy goal was to increase adoption of EVs. And be the #1 market for EVs in the world. On that measure, they succeeded.

Top_PEV_global_markets_stock_2017_final_

It might be a good policy if approximately 66% of their power didn’t come from coal. I would venture to say the modern ice powered cars would pollute less than the those coal fired power plants charging those electric cars. 

Edited by tbone
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, tbone said:

I have a love hate relationship with California. I love the land and what it has to offer, as well as some good people, but hate its politics. Make no mistake, if California politicians had the ability to push their agendas onto the rest of the country they would. Thankfully they can’t. The exception to that would be some awful case law that has come out of the 9th circuit that has established some bad precedent for the rest of the country at the federal level. Of course the 7th circuit has done some real doozies too, so you aren’t alone. 

4th generation Californian, love the Progressive politics here. Not aware of any awful case law out of the 9th circuit - although would not be binding on the rest of the country anyway. Don't really know anyone who wants to push our agenda on the rest of the country - we just don't want the minority now controlling Washington to push their backward ideas on us.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, msm859 said:

4th generation Californian, love the Progressive politics here. Not aware of any awful case law out of the 9th circuit - although would not be binding on the rest of the country anyway. Don't really know anyone who wants to push our agenda on the rest of the country - we just don't want the minority now controlling Washington to push their backward ideas on us.

The 9th circuit is known amongst lawyers to be a bit wacky. Most things that might not have a great chance to pass are usually filed through the 9th circuit because they tend to be a bit of a wild card. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

California is the 5th largest economy in the world due to its pushing green? Baloney! Oil has been a big factor in Propelling California to its current economic position. 

More like the most likely to go BK, putting advertisements on TV tell people "we're cool, please visit us", amongst the other immoral garbage they float on TV and internet. What can't be made in other states that's made in California?, Texas is replacing California for economy anyways.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, tbone said:

It might be a good policy if approximately 66% of their power didn’t come from coal. I would venture to say the modern ice powered cars would pollute less than the those coal fired power plants charging those electric cars

I once thought that, but then looked at the literature and found out that, surprisingly, they don't. Electric motors are so freakishly efficient that even an electric vehicle powered fueled entirely by coal-sourced electricity (and even given losses in the generation, transmission and charging processes) are going to result in the emission of fewer air pollutants and greenhouse gases than oil (cleaner than coal) burning internal combustion engines. And today most electricity in the U.S. comes from a range of sources -- including lower-emitting sources like natural gas, renewables and nuclear power -- not just coal.

See this stat from www.fueleconomy.com, the U.S. government entity that measures these things:

  • Energy efficient. EVs convert about 59%–62% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 17%–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.*
Edited by Gurgeh
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, msm859 said:

4th generation Californian, love the Progressive politics here. Not aware of any awful case law out of the 9th circuit - although would not be binding on the rest of the country anyway. Don't really know anyone who wants to push our agenda on the rest of the country - we just don't want the minority now controlling Washington to push their backward ideas on us.

Well, while the 9th circuit isn't quite at the top of the most-overturned by the Supreme Court, at 79% (from 2010-2015) it is close.  The 7th circuit (also cited by tbone), for instance gets overturned less than half the time -- 48%. And the least overturned is the 10th circuit at 42%. Most overturned? The 6th circuit at 87%. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Now, don't get me wrong. There are still issues with all-electrics that makes this a typically California law a bad idea. Many people like me don't live where it is possible to do overnight home charging. Plus, for many there continues to be range, cold-weather performance and cost issues. The market is rapidly working on these issues and the transition to BEVs is underway, though not sure how to solve the overnight charging issue. The law would, as these things go, hit lower income folks the hardest.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gurgeh said:

(Now, don't get me wrong. There are still issues with all-electrics that makes this a typically California law a bad idea. Many people like me don't live where it is possible to do overnight home charging. Plus, for many there continues to be range, cold-weather performance and cost issues. The market is rapidly working on these issues and the transition to BEVs is underway, though not sure how to solve the overnight charging issue. The law would, as these things go, hit lower income folks the hardest.)

Those issues you raise need to be addressed.  In California HOA's have to allow you to have a plug in station.  So if you live in a condo you will be able to charge.  They also require a TOU meter so you can charge for less at night.  You can also install in at an apartment.  As to cost they will go down in time and maybe a PHEV is a good stepping stone.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Fgts said:

More like the most likely to go BK, putting advertisements on TV tell people "we're cool, please visit us", amongst the other immoral garbage they float on TV and internet. What can't be made in other states that's made in California?, Texas is replacing California for economy anyways.

California’s agriculture industry is a major player in the state’s economy – and for the U.S. overall –  generating a whopping $100 billion in agriculture-related activity each year. One of only five agricultural regions in the world with a Mediterranean-growing climate, California produces more than 400 animal and plant commodities annually, more than any other state, with top products including milk, almonds, grapes, beef and more. Additionally, two-thirds of the nation’s fruits and nuts and over a third of its vegetables are produced by California farms alone.

We also have Silicon Valley and Hollywood that are not going to be replaced by Texas.  Not too worried about a BK, we have a $20 billion dollar surplus this year.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, rperez817 said:

It works in both directions. Social engineering and the government regulation that goes with it can facilitate technological change too. China's leadership in electric vehicles today is an example of social engineering and technological change working in tandem.

explains Chinas lead in air quality as well right?....oh wait, but they are in the Paris Agreement correct....

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, msm859 said:

I'll take your comment about us Californians as a compliment.  California only has 1 small coal power plant left.  By 2026 it will be gone, as well as not allowing ANY electricity to be imported that is produced by coal.  I have solar panels on my roof that supply almost 100% of my electricity.  Last year I added more along with a heat pump water heater for my domestic hot water - further reducing my natural gas use. For heat in the winter I have radiant heat along with a boiler that is so efficient it vents out of PVC pipe.   I am primarily on this forum because of the new Lincoln Aviator PHEV coming out and plan to add even more solar panels to feed it.- or some other PHEV.  There is nothing wrong with pushing green.  It is one of the reasons California on its own is the 5th largest economy in the world.

Are you solar panels made in the USA?  If not, they generated more pollution being transported across the Pacific Ocean than if you just used natural gas for decades. 

https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/cargo-container-shipping-carbon-pollution/

If 'foreign oil' was such a bad thing, then how can 'foreign solar panels' not be a bad thing?  Wouldn't we simply be trading one foreign energy dependency from a 'not so friendly country' to another of the same?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, msm859 said:

We also have Silicon Valley and Hollywood that are not going to be replaced by Texas.  Not too worried about a BK, we have a $20 billion dollar surplus this year.

Texas is the best place in the U.S. for business. But Texas will never replace Silicon Valley and Hollywood. Or California's diverse agricultural industry. California still has a higher Gross State Product than Texas and probably will for a long time.

Some of the smarter public officials in Texas have applied good practices from California for stuff like EV charging, clean energy incentives, etc.

Edited by rperez817
Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Kev-Mo said:

Are you solar panels made in the USA?  If not, they generated more pollution being transported across the Pacific Ocean than if you just used natural gas for decades. 

https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/cargo-container-shipping-carbon-pollution/

If 'foreign oil' was such a bad thing, then how can 'foreign solar panels' not be a bad thing?  Wouldn't we simply be trading one foreign energy dependency from a 'not so friendly country' to another of the same?

The article does not support your conclusion at all.  And my solar panels were made by a friendly country - South Korea. They will last over 25 years.  The oil you talk about importing is continually burned and has to be replaced. Are you suggesting we not import anything?  Why single out solar panels?  How about ICE vehicles?  And foreign oil is a bad thing, not only for the raising of CO2, but because we are giving billions to countries that fund terrorists and are run by barbaric religious fanatics. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, msm859 said:

California’s agriculture industry is a major player in the state’s economy – and for the U.S. overall –  generating a whopping $100 billion in agriculture-related activity each year. One of only five agricultural regions in the world with a Mediterranean-growing climate, California produces more than 400 animal and plant commodities annually, more than any other state, with top products including milk, almonds, grapes, beef and more. Additionally, two-thirds of the nation’s fruits and nuts and over a third of its vegetables are produced by California farms alone.

We also have Silicon Valley and Hollywood that are not going to be replaced by Texas.  Not too worried about a BK, we have a $20 billion dollar surplus this year.

California, where I was born and grew up, is increasingly two states in one. California is an economic powerhouse, particularly in technology, entertainment, agriculture and financial services, with better than average economic growth. Its state budget is overwhelmingly funded by the capital gains of its millionaires and billionaires (which makes state revenue subject to wild swings with the business cycle), of which it has more of than any other state (though on a per capita basis it is 10th, with Maryland, due to its Washington D.C. suburbs, coming in first on this measure). It is also the state with the highest poverty rate (factoring in cost of living) in the nation (without considering the real value of income it has the 14th highest poverty rate). It is a state with its middle class fleeing elsewhere, but which remains a wonderful place to live -- if you can afford it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

explains Chinas lead in air quality as well right?

Not yet. China has a long way to go to be a leader in air quality. However, the combination of social engineering and technological change explains why China is cleaning up air pollution at a more rapid pace than post industrial countries like the UK. http://blogs.edf.org/markets/2018/05/17/how-china-is-cleaning-up-its-air-pollution-faster-than-the-post-industrial-uk/

"Air pollution in China has been decreasing at a similar trajectory as London’s 90 years earlier, but at twice the pace. While extreme air pollution levels in China’s recent history are typical for an industrializing economy, its pace in cleaning up the pollution is fast by historical standards."

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, msm859 said:

I'll take your comment about us Californians as a compliment.  California only has 1 small coal power plant left.  By 2026 it will be gone, as well as not allowing ANY electricity to be imported that is produced by coal.  I have solar panels on my roof that supply almost 100% of my electricity.  Last year I added more along with a heat pump water heater for my domestic hot water - further reducing my natural gas use. For heat in the winter I have radiant heat along with a boiler that is so efficient it vents out of PVC pipe.   I am primarily on this forum because of the new Lincoln Aviator PHEV coming out and plan to add even more solar panels to feed it.- or some other PHEV.  There is nothing wrong with pushing green.  It is one of the reasons California on its own is the 5th largest economy in the world.

California has "solved" the electrical generation conundrum by simply outsourcing a large portion of it to other states, many of which still use coal and other fossil fuels as power sources:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/judeclemente/2016/04/03/californias-growing-imported-electricity-problem/#1b362d954469

It also has some of the highest utility rates in the nation, which has helped raise its poverty rate - when adjusted for the cost of living - to the highest in the nation.

https://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/jan/20/chad-mayes/true-california-has-nations-highest-poverty-rate-w/

Edited by grbeck
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, rperez817 said:

It works in both directions. Social engineering and the government regulation that goes with it can facilitate technological change too. China's leadership in electric vehicles today is an example of social engineering and technological change working in tandem.

Just curious.  Are the Chinese as aggressive in other areas?  Like air and water quality associated with their foundries, steel mills and industry in general?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the record, I'm all for California being able to determine its own policy in these areas. (Although, if I lived there, I'd be more concerned about rampant human waste on the sidewalks of various urban areas, and the spread of diseases such as typhus from massive homeless encampments.)

But let's not pretend that such policies don't result in some serious side effects (such as much higher costs for people, particularly the poor). Said side effects are valid reasons for other states and jurisdictions to tread carefully before adopting them, or some variation of them.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, grbeck said:

When vehicles powered by alternative powerplants are superior to current vehicles, people will happily buy them.

Henry Ford I didn't push for a ban on horse-drawn wagons to get people to buy Model Ts.

If you can't beat 'em, ban 'em!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...