silvrsvt Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, passis said: Regarding Puma in the US, wouldn't it make more sense to explore the C2 architecture - and make a more compact Escape - rather than producing a B platform vehicle like the Puma? Given the fact that Ford is struggling to make money on the current Escape and the next gen one will most likely cost more and the Bronco Scout is going to be even more then that-I don't think so... Though I did have a thought-is this Affordable Name plate just a Focus Active redux with better North American market input? Not sure how they could make it work after what I said before-but could be possible? I also have a hard time thinking that Ford would import an "el cheapo" car from China or India to the US, just to have an entry level product that isn't the Ecosport.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 49 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Given the fact that Ford is struggling to make money on the current Escape and the next gen one will most likely cost more and the Bronco Scout is going to be even more then that-I don't think so... Though I did have a thought-is this Affordable Name plate just a Focus Active redux with better North American market input? Not sure how they could make it work after what I said before-but could be possible? I also have a hard time thinking that Ford would import an "el cheapo" car from China or India to the US, just to have an entry level product that isn't the Ecosport.... It really has to be C2 to get the economy of scale and would have to be built in Mexico. It would have to be smaller than Escape. I also doubt it would be a bottom feeder like Nissan Versa - you can't make money on those. Maybe it's a smaller Escape but with a more attractive profile (like what we thought Focus Active would be). Given the fuel economy of today's vehicles you don't need something as tiny as ecosport or fiesta. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 15 minutes ago, akirby said: It really has to be C2 to get the economy of scale and would have to be built in Mexico. It would have to be smaller than Escape. I also doubt it would be a bottom feeder like Nissan Versa - you can't make money on those. Maybe it's a smaller Escape but with a more attractive profile (like what we thought Focus Active would be). Given the fuel economy of today's vehicles you don't need something as tiny as ecosport or fiesta. Maybe Escape "coupe" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 1 hour ago, rmc523 said: Maybe Escape "coupe" ? That would be a good way to bring back the Fusion or Taurus name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 2 hours ago, akirby said: It really has to be C2 to get the economy of scale and would have to be built in Mexico. It would have to be smaller than Escape. I also doubt it would be a bottom feeder like Nissan Versa - you can't make money on those. Maybe it's a smaller Escape but with a more attractive profile (like what we thought Focus Active would be). Given the fuel economy of today's vehicles you don't need something as tiny as ecosport or fiesta. Maybe it will be Focus Active just with a different name? The other thing to keep an eye out for is what Ford plans to do in China in the low end market. What does next gen Yusheng S330/Territory look like? Assuming it will be a C2 vehicle, that would seem to fill the entry level product role quite well in the US market. Certainly from a product cadence standpoint Focus/Escape/Scout/Corsair will always be the pricey first wave, and Escort/Territory should follow in a few years with some costs stripped out. Ford let all its product stay around for too long and it is really exposed in China where the normal model cycle is 2-3 years, not 6-7 years. So if Ford is serious about being competitive there, they must already be working on a new Escort and Territory. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted April 22, 2019 Author Share Posted April 22, 2019 2 hours ago, akirby said: It really has to be C2 to get the economy of scale and would have to be built in Mexico. I just reread the the Automotive News article. This jumped out, " "It's an example of how we're moving faster, working together differently and leveraging our five all-new flexible vehicle architectures." Almost has to be C2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passis Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 3 hours ago, bzcat said: ... What does next gen Yusheng S330/Territory look like? Assuming it will be a C2 vehicle, that would seem to fill the entry level product role quite well in the US market. ... and Escort/Territory should follow in a few years with some costs stripped out. ... So if Ford is serious about being competitive there, they must already be working on a new Escort and Territory. Yes, I have hopes this new product is the next generation Territory (what I called anti-Compass earlier) and hopefully it can be ready soon, assuming Hecket is making the development more agile. Escort and Territory should also be Ford's bread and butter in South America, considering a) Ka's margins are low, b) Ford needs a successor to Ka, Fiesta and Focus in a region where affordable sedans *still* have a good place, c) Ecosport is too small even for our market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Territory? How about no! Assuming there's a Lincoln "Mach E" Ford and Lincoln will have at least 10 CUVs by '22. Plus there will be at least 3 SUVs. That's plenty of utilities. If they want car buyers to come to Ford showrooms, they'll have to offer them cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Could it possibly be a short range (50 mile) BEV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 1 hour ago, akirby said: Could it possibly be a short range (50 mile) BEV? This is what you'll get for a 50 mile range BEV...(actually listed as 45 mile range, but you get my point) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Nah, think Nisssan leaf with a smaller battery to keep costs down. But that might still not be "affordable" since Leaf is $29K. Just throwing out SWAGs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Affordability is going to take on a new meaning in the over the next 5 years, affordable is not a < 20K vehicle, it is going to be a < $27K vehicle. There are buyers that are going to become used vehicle buyers by default. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, jasonj80 said: There are buyers that are going to become used vehicle buyers by default. That's already happening 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 46 minutes ago, jasonj80 said: Affordability is going to take on a new meaning in the over the next 5 years, affordable is not a < 20K vehicle, it is going to be a < $27K vehicle. There are buyers that are going to become used vehicle buyers by default. That is true and also why car companies are looking at the $500 all in one lease payment on a car too. But the huge issue with the used car market is that supply is shitty and the pricing is terrible for buyers-Just as an off handed experience- Sold my old 1998 Mustang GT in 2002 for $4500 bucks (paid about 20K for it after plan pricing) I sold my old 2006 Mustang GT 2 years ago for $6500 (and paid about $24000 for new after plan pricing). I guess I'm reminiscing too much about when you could get a decent used car for under $4-5K back in the early 1990s when I first started driving. I'm expecting to get about 10K for a 40K+ car for a trade in about 2 years time. Higher pricing of new cars is making used cars more expensive (so people can trade them in on newer cars and keep payments roughly the same) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 1 hour ago, silvrsvt said: That is true and also why car companies are looking at the $500 all in one lease payment on a car too. But the huge issue with the used car market is that supply is shitty and the pricing is terrible for buyers-Just as an off handed experience- Sold my old 1998 Mustang GT in 2002 for $4500 bucks (paid about 20K for it after plan pricing) I sold my old 2006 Mustang GT 2 years ago for $6500 (and paid about $24000 for new after plan pricing). I guess I'm reminiscing too much about when you could get a decent used car for under $4-5K back in the early 1990s when I first started driving. I'm expecting to get about 10K for a 40K+ car for a trade in about 2 years time. Higher pricing of new cars is making used cars more expensive (so people can trade them in on newer cars and keep payments roughly the same) For off lease used cars maybe. A 10 year old used Fusion or Malibu is affordable to someone with a lower income. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: For off lease used cars maybe. A 10 year old used Fusion or Malibu is affordable to someone with a lower income. Just a quick look at Cars.com shows that not a completely worn out Fusion (with over 100K miles-yes you can get more out of it, but if you need a transmission or some other major work to a car, it might windup costing 25%+ of the purchase cost), your still looking at $8-10K for a car. With just a down payment of $1000, it would be a $180-200+ car payment (@5% if you have good credit) over 5 years-on a car that is already 10 years old...not exactly good odds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, jasonj80 said: Affordability is going to take on a new meaning in the over the next 5 years, affordable is not a < 20K vehicle, it is going to be a < $27K vehicle. There are buyers that are going to become used vehicle buyers by default. Nature abhors a vacuum; this will open the door for Cheap Chinese junk to finally enter the US market. And the owners of Korean Krap will finally have someone to look down on. Edited April 24, 2019 by AGR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 34 minutes ago, AGR said: Nature abhors a vacuum; this will open the door for Cheap Chinese junk to finally enter the US market. And the owners of Korean Krap will finally have someone to look down on. Even they won’t be able to hit those price points with mileage, crash standards, emissions, infotainment and build quality they need to meet that to compete in this market. They will be cheaper but not 7k cheaper. What’s wrong with Korean cars? In certain segments they have the vehicle in the segment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Decade old cars today are nothing like the rust buckets of the "good old days". 100K miles is nothing, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 1 hour ago, 630land said: Decade old cars today are nothing like the rust buckets of the "good old days". 100K miles is nothing, too. Meh-My wifes 2010 Escape was rusting through the wheel wells on the rear (common problem with that gen Escape) and had about 157K on it when it was traded in. It was decent mechanically outside of the water pump going (which we drove 60 miles over 3-4 hours to get home with-should have only been 2 hour ride) and the capless fuel system needing a repair. My sister still has hers, but she's also had a lot more work done to it, which was identical to my wife's outside of hers being a limited vs XLT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 I can't remember what thread it was talked about in, but this should end the Puma in North America discussion. Came from Mike Levine's twitter 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 10 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: I can't remember what thread it was talked about in, but this should end the Puma in North America discussion. Came from Mike Levine's twitter That makes sense, but I wonder what the deal is with the Ecosport update/replacement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 38 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: That makes sense, but I wonder what the deal is with the Ecosport update/replacement? Well that chart only goes through this year. The short C ute and pickup should "pick up" the ecosport slot along with this new "affordable" vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 32 minutes ago, akirby said: Well that chart only goes through this year. The short C ute and pickup should "pick up" the ecosport slot along with this new "affordable" vehicle. The Short C morphed into the the Bronco Scout IMO. That product is going to cost more then the Escape. Not to mention pretty much anything pre 2017 was more or less thrown out the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: The Short C morphed into the the Bronco Scout IMO. That product is going to cost more then the Escape. Not to mention pretty much anything pre 2017 was more or less thrown out the window. I was referring to the "other" short C - the companion to the truck. I don't think that was Scout or Transit Connect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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