silvrsvt Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 https://www.thestreet.com/investing/stocks/tesla-shares-gain-after-multi-million-dollar-emissions-deal-with-fiat-chrysler-14919319 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 What a scam from a government and corporate perspective. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 Up to $750 Million in income to Tesla and a big get out of Jail pass on Fiat's dirty vehicles. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 Wondering if these are the first steps toward an eventual takeover of Tesla by FCA... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailhiker Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 4 hours ago, jpd80 said: Up to $750 Million in income to Tesla and a big get out of Jail pass on Fiat's dirty vehicles. So, Tesla customers can no longer say they are 'helping' the environment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 It’s all about the money. I’m not a conspiracy theorists but I understand where the ideas come from. Situations like these, money changes hands and all is forgiven. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 18 hours ago, tbone said: What a scam from a government and corporate perspective. 38 minutes ago, fordtech1 said: It’s all about the money. I’m not a conspiracy theorists but I understand where the ideas come from. Situations like these, money changes hands and all is forgiven. Definitely. It's why lobbyists, corporate lawyers, and government officials in certain positions get so rich. There's always a deal to be made between businesses and governments, however shady. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msm859 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 2 hours ago, fordtech1 said: It’s all about the money. I’m not a conspiracy theorists but I understand where the ideas come from. Situations like these, money changes hands and all is forgiven. It is not a conspiracy theory. It is part of cap and trade. It is believed by some to be a method to smoothly transition to something - in this case more environmentally friendly cars. No different then buying ZEV credits in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msm859 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 2 hours ago, Trailhiker said: So, Tesla customers can no longer say they are 'helping' the environment! Yes they can. Every Tesla sold means one less ICE vehicle. It gives Tesla and like manufacturers money for R&D to build even more vehicles. It also influences ICE manufacturers to become cleaner so they do not have to pay the "tax". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 1 hour ago, msm859 said: It also influences ICE manufacturers to become cleaner so they do not have to pay the "tax". Doesn't appear to be working for FCA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 2 hours ago, msm859 said: It is not a conspiracy theory. It is part of cap and trade. It is believed by some to be a method to smoothly transition to something - in this case more environmentally friendly cars. No different then buying ZEV credits in the US. I understand it’s that same in the us. That’s why I said that. However, I don’t see any difference than if I got a Grade F and my friend got an A. If I bought that A off of him. Ironically we are hearing this college admission scandal of celebrities. This seems the same. Plus Tesla has been funding its operations from these credits for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 1 hour ago, fordtech1 said: I understand it’s that same in the us. That’s why I said that. However, I don’t see any difference than if I got a Grade F and my friend got an A. If I bought that A off of him. Ironically we are hearing this college admission scandal of celebrities. This seems the same. Plus Tesla has been funding its operations from these credits for a while. I agree. It would be different if FCA bought Tesla. Selling credits to other mfrs doesn’t help the environment at all - in fact it allows FCA to keep producing less compliant vehicles. It won’t change the number of Teslas sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 58 minutes ago, akirby said: I agree. It would be different if FCA bought Tesla. Selling credits to other mfrs doesn’t help the environment at all - in fact it allows FCA to keep producing less compliant vehicles. It won’t change the number of Teslas sold. Well, one could argue the funds will help keep it in business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, rmc523 said: Well, one could argue the funds will help keep it in business. Only temporarily. To borrow the previous analogy - it's like having a class full of A students and a class full of F students and the goal is to have each class have a passing average. Instead of trying to improve the F class and get them to Cs let's just swap half of each class so that each class averages a C. Now explain how that helps anybody? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msm859 Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 4 hours ago, akirby said: Only temporarily. To borrow the previous analogy - it's like having a class full of A students and a class full of F students and the goal is to have each class have a passing average. Instead of trying to improve the F class and get them to Cs let's just swap half of each class so that each class averages a C. Now explain how that helps anybody? I would say the A/F students is a non sequitur and a poor analogy that has nothing to do with Cap & Trade which is a "Temporary" solution to fix a problem and has worked in the past. https://cleantechnica.com/2010/06/08/five-good-things-cap-and-trade-has-done-for-you/ Tesla being allowed to sell credits has helped them stay in business and even if "only temporarily" They have been instrumental in pushing the technology and bringing other manufacturers along - perhaps kicking and screaming. However, I don't believe anyone can seriously dispute that without Tesla we would not be here today with all the BEV and PHEV offerings already out and coming in the near future. So if Cap & Trade facilitated that, then I am all for it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, msm859 said: I would say the A/F students is a non sequitur and a poor analogy that has nothing to do with Cap & Trade which is a "Temporary" solution to fix a problem and has worked in the past. https://cleantechnica.com/2010/06/08/five-good-things-cap-and-trade-has-done-for-you/ Tesla being allowed to sell credits has helped them stay in business and even if "only temporarily" They have been instrumental in pushing the technology and bringing other manufacturers along - perhaps kicking and screaming. However, I don't believe anyone can seriously dispute that without Tesla we would not be here today with all the BEV and PHEV offerings already out and coming in the near future. So if Cap & Trade facilitated that, then I am all for it. Excellent points msm859 sir. Cap & trade definitely has its benefits. Also, Tesla's leadership in designing appealing BEVs (not just 'compliance cars') is a big win not only for them and their customers, but for the whole automotive industry. Tesla's mission to “to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market as soon as possible" is noteworthy. I don't like the corruption among some public officials and businessmen involved in cap & trade deals though. Edited April 10, 2019 by rperez817 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted April 12, 2019 Author Share Posted April 12, 2019 On 4/10/2019 at 12:43 AM, rperez817 said: Excellent points msm859 sir. Cap & trade definitely has its benefits. Also, Tesla's leadership in designing appealing BEVs (not just 'compliance cars') is a big win not only for them and their customers, but for the whole automotive industry. Tesla's mission to “to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market as soon as possible" is noteworthy. But they are also operating in a more or less vacuum now that will become very crowded in the next 12-24 months with luxury and non-luxury players entering the market with BEVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 14 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: But they are also operating in a more or less vacuum now that will become very crowded in the next 12-24 months with luxury and non-luxury players entering the market with BEVs. They took advantage of a new market as a company that could survive on investment capital and trading credits instead of turning a profit, whereas the traditional mfrs don't have that luxury. Now that the traditional mfrs can make BEVs profitably (or at least break even) it's going to be a whole different ballgame. If I had Tesla stock I'd be dumping it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 No doubt competition will be heating up. Tesla better be prepared for all kind of stories of Model S owners trading in their vehicles for a new Porsche Mission E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 22 minutes ago, mackinaw said: No doubt competition will be heating up. Tesla better be prepared for all kind of stories of Model S owners trading in their vehicles for a new Porsche Mission E. And the fact that there is no second generation Mosel S when the competition like the Porsche comes out, will add the compound interest to this equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted April 12, 2019 Author Share Posted April 12, 2019 21 minutes ago, mackinaw said: No doubt competition will be heating up. Tesla better be prepared for all kind of stories of Model S owners trading in their vehicles for a new Porsche Mission E. That is the elephant is Tesla's room-do they actually have a path forward for refreshing products, instead of just adding new models? The Model S came out in 2012 and they just updated the grill externally looks wise the Fusion came out around the same time and has had two refreshes-but the last one was about as much as what they changed on the Model S update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 15 minutes ago, atomcat68 said: And the fact that there is no second generation Mosel S when the competition like the Porsche comes out, will add the compound interest to this equation. That's been my point all along - they can't even make money on the new models and they're not even doing the R&D to update the older models yet. Cool cars but an unstainable business model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgeh Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) More interesting news from Tesla. While this story is mainly about the extreme difficulty off actually buying a (money-losing -- for Tesla) "standard" Model 3 and additional content being "removed" (that is, software locked), one company comment on changes to the leasing policy caught my eye: "Please note, customers who choose leasing over owning will not have the option to purchase their car at the end of the lease, because with full autonomy coming in the future via an over-the-air software update, we plan to use those vehicles in the Tesla ride-hailing network." Huh, does Tesla really think driverless hailing services will be working the roads of American cities in two or three years? https://jalopnik.com/you-cant-buy-teslas-35-000-model-3-online-anymore-1833995005 Edited April 12, 2019 by Gurgeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 43 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: That is the elephant is Tesla's room-do they actually have a path forward for refreshing products, instead of just adding new models? The Model S came out in 2012 and they just updated the grill externally looks wise the Fusion came out around the same time and has had two refreshes-but the last one was about as much as what they changed on the Model S update. Well. Let's be honest, the Fusion's 2017 update was also nothing to write home about and to the average buyer it was barely changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgeh Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 (...and by the way, what I really think Tesla has in mind for the software-locked "standard" 3's coming off lease is to unlock the "Plus" features and resell them as higher-priced cars.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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