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jpd80

Jaguar Land Rover takes $4.4B hit, writes down value of cars, plants

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57 minutes ago, akirby said:

I assume it's because Caddy had more newer vehicles than Buick in 2015.

 

Time for my annual rant on rankings.  

The absolute best vehicles had, on average, 1 problem in 3 years.

The middle of the pack had, on average, 1.5 problems in 3 years.

The absolute worst had, on average, 2 problems in 3 years at least some of which were probably handled in one dealer visit.

Don't just look at rankings.

I agree in general. It is worthwhile looking at the very best and possibly avoiding the very worst, but most cars these days are quite reliable, with massive bunching in the middle 70% or so.

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11 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

I agree in general. It is worthwhile looking at the very best and possibly avoiding the very worst, but most cars these days are quite reliable, with massive bunching in the middle 70% or so.

I'd take it even further and say that reliability and safety have advanced to the point that they're no longer a factor in purchase decisions for most buyers.  Styling, price and features are far more important now.  

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7 hours ago, Bellanca said:

Jaguar is the brand that got me interested in cars; it seems like dark days ahead for JLR; I’m hoping they make a turnaround though. At least they’re finally bringing the I6 to the table. 

Same here! My first car was a 1983 Series III XJ6 that I bought used and fixed up. I bought 5 additional Jaguars over the years.

Jaguar & JLR should emerge from the tough times stronger and more agile. They have dealt with challenging conditions before. After all, JLR survived even after being mismanaged by Ford for nearly 20 years. 

The new Ingenium I6 is impressive! It should be a big improvement over the supercharged V6 all around. 

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4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

Same here! My first car was a 1983 Series III XJ6 that I bought used and fixed up. I bought 5 additional Jaguars over the years.

Jaguar & JLR should emerge from the tough times stronger and more agile. They have dealt with challenging conditions before. After all, JLR survived even after being mismanaged by Ford for nearly 20 years. 

The new Ingenium I6 is impressive! It should be a big improvement over the supercharged V6 all around. 

<whew>...I just knew you couldn't go too long without blaming Ford for something....give it a rest guy....they have not been under Ford's tutelage for over 10 years now....any errors now are theirs alone to share with Tata.

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On 2/8/2019 at 12:04 PM, Gurgeh said:

Yes, which is why JLR are planning, so I hear, to transition Jaguar over to a (nearly) all-electric automaker within just a few years.

That is world class irony, a car maker with a long-standing reputation for electrical gremlins going to all-electric.

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PAG was a bit of a disaster but most of those brands probably wouldn’t be around if Ford didn’t buy them. 

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I’m curious if the deal they made with Waymo is part of these earnings, there’s no way they’ve even produced enough I-Paces for all that they ordered. 

 

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/waymo-jaguar-ipace-self-driving-electric-suv/

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7 hours ago, akirby said:

If it wasn’t for Ford JLR would have gone bankrupt.

I was so close to posting this same comment.  Jaguar was basically a mess when Ford bought them. 

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I remember reading a quote from an executive when Ford bought Jaguar. He said that the plant was actually in worse condition, and used more primitive production processes, than some automotive plants in the Soviet bloc!

The idea that the troubles of Jaguar or Land Rover stem from Ford's ownership of the brands is a stretch, at best.

Incidentally, GM was also interested in buying Jaguar at the time. We all know how well GM has managed the companies it has bought...

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2 minutes ago, grbeck said:

Incidentally, GM was also interested in buying Jaguar at the time. We all know how well GM has managed the companies it has bought...

Yup....Saab, Opel to name two...

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GM is seemingly the place where brands go to die. 

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27 minutes ago, Bellanca said:

GM is seemingly the place where brands go to die. 

Yes sir. Of the 12 automotive brands in the U.S. that died in the 21st century, 6 were from GM.  8 if you include the car divisions of Suzuki and Isuzu which both had partial ownership by GM.

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4 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

Yes sir. Of the 12 automotive brands in the U.S. that died in the 21st century, 6 were from GM.  8 if you include the car divisions of Suzuki and Isuzu which both had partial ownership by GM.

Pontiac, Oldmobile, Saturn, Hummer, ?, ?

Mercury, Scion

What else?

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26 minutes ago, akirby said:

Pontiac, Oldmobile, Saturn, Hummer, ?, ?

Mercury, Scion

What else?

Well, he said Suzuki and Isuzu.  So that's 8.

Saab makes 9.

Plymouth?  10.

Don't know if he counts Maybach, as they still use it as a trim level now.

Maybe he's counting Fisker?

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10 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

Well, he said Suzuki and Isuzu.  So that's 8.

Saab makes 9.

Plymouth?  10.

Don't know if he counts Maybach, as they still use it as a trim level now.

Maybe he's counting Fisker?

Speaking of Fiskar, I see a silver one going the other way on my drive home a couple times a week.

 

Was Geo still around in 2000?

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1 hour ago, akirby said:

Pontiac, Oldmobile, Saturn, Hummer, ?, ?

Mercury, Scion

What else?

 

57 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

Well, he said Suzuki and Isuzu.  So that's 8.

Saab makes 9.

Plymouth?  10.

Don't know if he counts Maybach, as they still use it as a trim level now.

Maybe he's counting Fisker?

 

44 minutes ago, Trailhiker said:

Speaking of Fiskar, I see a silver one going the other way on my drive home a couple times a week.

 

Was Geo still around in 2000?

Here are the brands that I found went defunct from year 2000 in the U.S.

  1. Oldsmobile (2004)
  2. Pontiac (2010)
  3. Saturn (2010)
  4. Hummer (2010)
  5. Daewoo (2003)
  6. Saab (2012)
  7. Isuzu (2008)
  8. Suzuki (2013)
  9. Plymouth (2000)
  10. Mercury (2011)
  11. Scion (2016)
  12. Fisker (2014)

The first 6 are GM  brands. Or first 8 if you count GM's stake in Isuzu and Suzuki. As rmc523 mentioned, I didn't count Maybach because it was resurrected in 2015 as a sub-brand for Mercedes-Benz S-Class.

Trailhiker, the Geo brand went away in 1997. All Geo models were rebranded as Chevrolets for the 1998 model year. 

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5 hours ago, grbeck said:

I remember reading a quote from an executive when Ford bought Jaguar. He said that the plant was actually in worse condition, and used more primitive production processes, than some automotive plants in the Soviet bloc!

I remember this.  I also remembering that same Ford exec saying that the fastest way to improve the Jag factory would be to tear it down.  

Back in the 80's, both GM and Ford were in an expansion mode.  GM was in talks with Jaguar, Ford with Saab.  At the last moment, Ford bought Jag and GM bought Saab. 

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48 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

 

Here are the brands that I found went defunct from year 2000 in the U.S.

  1. Oldsmobile (2004)
  2. Pontiac (2010)
  3. Saturn (2010)
  4. Hummer (2010)
  5. Daewoo (2003)
  6. Saab (2012)
  7. Isuzu (2008)
  8. Suzuki (2013)
  9. Plymouth (2000)
  10. Mercury (2011)
  11. Scion (2016)
  12. Fisker (2014)

The first 6 are GM  brands. Or first 8 if you count GM's stake in Isuzu and Suzuki. As rmc523 mentioned, I didn't count Maybach because it was resurrected in 2015 as a sub-brand for Mercedes-Benz S-Class.

Trailhiker, the Geo brand went away in 1997. All Geo models were rebranded as Chevrolets for the 1998 model year. 

2000 is sort of arbitrary cutoff. If you go back 5 more years, you can add Geo and Asüna (Canada only) to GM's tally of brand graveyard.

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36 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 If you go back 5 more years, you can add Geo and Asüna (Canada only) to GM's tally of brand graveyard.

Thanks bzcat. Add to those the brands outside the U.S. that GM killed (Alpheon) and sold off (Opel and Vauxhall to PSA Group). That's more than a dozen automotive brands in the past 25 years GM once owned at least in part, but could not sustain.

Edited by rperez817

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Fisker will supposedly be coming back soon, so you can't put them on the list just yet.

Edited by AGR

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Eagle, which was AMC after Chrysler bought it.

 

EDIT: oops, Eagle was 1998, but almost 2000ish.

Edited by atomcat68

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6 hours ago, atomcat68 said:

Eagle, which was AMC after Chrysler bought it.

 

EDIT: oops, Eagle was 1998, but almost 2000ish.

Which was what? A single model of rebadged LH?

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42 minutes ago, J-150 said:

Which was what? A single model of rebadged LH?

That was Eagle Vision, their flagship model between 1993 and 1997. The other Eagle cars were as follows.

  • 1988-1992 Eagle Premier. Full size sedan designed by AMC/Renault. Predecessor to Eagle Vision.
  • 1987-1989 Eagle Medallion. Mid size sedan. Rebadge of Renault 21.
  • 1989-1996 Eagle Summit. Compact sedan, coupe, hatch, and MPV. Rebadge of Mitsubishi Mirage and RVR.
  • 1990-1998 Eagle Talon. Sports coupe. Rebadge of Mitsubishi Eclipse.
Edited by rperez817

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38 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

That was Eagle Vision, their flagship model between 1993 and 1997. The other Eagle cars were as follows.

  • 1988-1992 Eagle Premier. Full size sedan designed by AMC/Renault. Predecessor to Eagle Vision.
  • 1987-1989 Eagle Medallion. Mid size sedan. Rebadge of Renault 21.
  • 1989-1996 Eagle Summit. Compact sedan, coupe, hatch, and MPV. Rebadge of Mitsubishi Mirage and RVR.
  • 1990-1998 Eagle Talon. Sports coupe. Rebadge of Mitsubishi Eclipse.

So at shutdown, they only had a Mitsubishi.

Basket case of a division.

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