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blksn8k2

Lemon Law Vehicles

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I've been looking at used F-150's and came across what I initially thought was a smokin' hot deal until I discovered that the truck had gone through a manufacturer buy back due to a warranty repair taking more than 30 days. In other words, Ford had to buy it back under the provisions of a state lemon law. This particular truck is a 5.0L and had a cam phaser issue. The replaced parts carry a one year warranty from the day the vehicle is resold and all other existing factory warranties are not affected.

Has anyone ever bought a lemon law vehicle and what kind of price discount should be expected? Also, what kind of hit could I expect on any future resale? The current asking price is not bad but it's not appreciably better than a normal used truck, or at least not as low as I would be more comfortable with...

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Decided to repeat this topic here since it probably won't get much attention in the Off Topic forum. That forum seems pretty dead. Mods feel free to delete it over there.  

Anyway, I've been looking at used F-150's and came across what I initially thought was a smokin' hot deal until I discovered that the truck had gone through a manufacturer buy back due to a warranty repair taking more than 30 days. In other words, Ford had to buy it back under the provisions of a state lemon law. This particular truck is a 5.0L and had a cam phaser issue. The replaced parts carry a one year warranty from the day the vehicle is resold and all other existing factory warranties are not affected.

Has anyone ever bought a lemon law vehicle and what kind of price discount should be expected? Also, what kind of hit could I expect on any future resale? The current asking price is not bad but it's not appreciably better than a normal used truck, or at least not as low as I would be more comfortable with...

An interesting fact that the current Ford dealer clued me in on is that once buy back vehicles are repaired they go through a full RAV (?) inspection and then on to auction where only certified dealers can bid on them. The winning dealer then did a 150 point inspection prior to putting the vehicle back up for sale as a used vehicle. In this case the manufacturer buy back also showed up on Auto Check.

Edit: Copy and paste doesn't seem to work worth a shit on this new format. LOL 

Edited by blksn8k2

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16 hours ago, blksn8k2 said:

I've been looking at used F-150's and came across what I initially thought was a smokin' hot deal until I discovered that the truck had gone through a manufacturer buy back due to a warranty repair taking more than 30 days. In other words, Ford had to buy it back under the provisions of a state lemon law. This particular truck is a 5.0L and had a cam phaser issue. The replaced parts carry a one year warranty from the day the vehicle is resold and all other existing factory warranties are not affected.

Has anyone ever bought a lemon law vehicle and what kind of price discount should be expected? Also, what kind of hit could I expect on any future resale? The current asking price is not bad but it's not appreciably better than a normal used truck, or at least not as low as I would be more comfortable with...

Hi blksn8k2. Same reply as in your Lounge post. First, you don't mention the model year or mileage. How much time/mileage left on the original warranty? Why only a one year warranty on the replacement parts instead of the remaining Bumper to Bumper and Powertrain Warranties? Motorcraft replacement parts have a two year warranty, so you're not even getting that minimal warranty period (how long ago was it repaired?).

Therefore...my thoughts and advice:  Find another truck to purchase. You know upfront that it was a Lemon Law vehicle which could not be correctly repaired during the ownership period of the original owner.  You now need to take the word of the Dealership that the original issue was finally fixed correctly. Whether it was or wasn't, for some reason you only have a one year warranty on that problem (again, Motorcraft replacement parts have a two year warranty and how much time left on the Bumper to Bumper/Powertrain Warranties?). And once you purchase it, the problem is baked into your purchase because you purchased it with the knowledge of, and the Dealer disclosed upfront, that it had this previous issue.  And that disclosure information will certainly be in the purchase contract. You will also have no Lemon Law recourse.  And you have no recourse against the Dealer, since the issue was disclosed to you before purchase. They can try to "fix-it" again for a year, then say the warranty is up. Not a good situation.

The future resale hit is an unknown variable.  It would depend on what problems you may have with the vehicle, your state laws on used vehicle sale disclosures, how knowledgeable the buyer would be and the questions they ask, what you disclose, etc, etc.

So to me, this is the bottom line: People who purchase used vehicles usually do so with the faith and hope that there were no previous major issues with the vehicle they are purchasing.  But in this case, you are wondering if you should purchase a vehicle with known major engine issues.  Plus, you say the price is not that much better than non Lemon Law vehicles of the same type. The answer is simple, at least to me.  Find another vehicle to purchase  with a better history.

Of course, this is only one opinion.

Let us know how you make out and good luck.

Edited by bbf2530

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15 hours ago, blksn8k2 said:

Decided to repeat this topic here since it probably won't get much attention in the Off Topic forum. That forum seems pretty dead. Mods feel free to delete it over there.  

Anyway, I've been looking at used F-150's and came across what I initially thought was a smokin' hot deal until I discovered that the truck had gone through a manufacturer buy back due to a warranty repair taking more than 30 days. In other words, Ford had to buy it back under the provisions of a state lemon law. This particular truck is a 5.0L and had a cam phaser issue. The replaced parts carry a one year warranty from the day the vehicle is resold and all other existing factory warranties are not affected.

Has anyone ever bought a lemon law vehicle and what kind of price discount should be expected? Also, what kind of hit could I expect on any future resale? The current asking price is not bad but it's not appreciably better than a normal used truck, or at least not as low as I would be more comfortable with...

An interesting fact that the current Ford dealer clued me in on is that once buy back vehicles are repaired they go through a full RAV (?) inspection and then on to auction where only certified dealers can bid on them. The winning dealer then did a 150 point inspection prior to putting the vehicle back up for sale as a used vehicle. In this case the manufacturer buy back also showed up on Auto Check.

Edit: Copy and paste doesn't seem to work worth a shit on this new format. LOL 

Hi blksn8k2. Same reply as in your Lounge post. First, you don't mention the model year or mileage. How much time/mileage left on the original warranty? Why only a one year warranty on the replacement parts instead of the remaining Bumper to Bumper and Powertrain Warranties? Motorcraft replacement parts have a two year warranty, so you're not even getting that minimal warranty period (how long ago was it repaired?).

Therefore...my thoughts and advice:  Find another truck to purchase. You know upfront that it was a Lemon Law vehicle which could not be correctly repaired during the ownership period of the original owner.  You now need to take the word of the Dealership that the original issue was finally fixed correctly. Whether it was or wasn't, for some reason you only have a one year warranty on that problem (again Motorcraft replacement parts have a two year warranty and how much time left on the Bumper to Bumper/Powertrain Warranties?). And once you purchase it, the problem is baked into your purchase because you purchased it with the knowledge of, and the Dealer disclosed upfront, that it had this previous issue.  And that disclosure information will certainly be in the purchase contract. You will also have no Lemon Law recourse.  And you have no recourse against the Dealer, since the issue was disclosed to you before purchase. They can try to "fix-it" again for a year, then say the warranty is up. Not a good situation.

The future resale hit is an unknown variable.  It would depend on what problems you may have with the vehicle, your state laws on used vehicle sale disclosures, how knowledgeable the buyer would be and the questions they ask, what you disclose, etc, etc.

So to me, this is the bottom line: People who purchase used vehicles usually do so with the faith and hope that there were no previous major issues with the vehicle they are purchasing.  But in this case, you are wondering if you should purchase a vehicle with known major engine issues.  Plus, you say the price is not that much better than non Lemon Law vehicles of the same type. The answer is simple, at least to me.  Find another vehicle to purchase  with a better history.

Of course, this is only one opinion.

Let us know how you make out and good luck.

Edited by bbf2530

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I wouldn't be scared of a RAV if I knew why it was reaquired, and that the issue had been fixed. Yours seems fairly cut and dried. Simple problem that got bough back due to a parts supply issue (surprise surprise). IF it was really that simple, it wouldn't be any different than any other warranty repair. What I would verify is the warranty status. Seems to me that RAV status changes the warranty significantly, but it has been several years since I dealt with any of them. 

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Thanks for the reply. The truck is a 2018 with less than 10,000 miles. I'm not so sure the two year warranty on Motorcraft parts applies to warranty repairs. The last time I had any major warranty repair work done at a Ford dealer the replaced part carried a one year warranty from the date of the repair which is similar to what this dealer stated. The only difference is that in this case the one year doesn't start until the vehicle is resold. The other thing to consider is that the current selling dealer is not the same dealer who failed to make the original warranty repair. The vehicle went to auction after the repair was made and a different Ford dealer purchased it.

And as far as the repair, it may be that because this is a 2018 and there were significant changes made to the gen 3 Coyote 5.0L, that the parts were not available within the 30 day period before the Lemon Law provisions kicked in. In other words, it may not have been the dealer's fault that it took too long simply because they couldn't get the parts.

Anyway, I haven't made any decision yet. Just shopping. What I have seen is that because of the end of year fire sales similarly equipped left-over 2018's can be had for around $6000-7000 over the asking price for this truck. I have yet to find another used 2018 equipped exactly like this truck and most of the ones I have found have fewer major options and are selling for a grand or two more than this one. Not exactly apples to apples. More like Macintosh to crab apples. BTW, according to the original window sticker the original MSRP on this truck was over $20,000 more than the current asking price and, again, it has less than 10,000 miles. It wouldn't be so tempting if it didn't have every option I want and then some. If I can't find what I consider a better deal I might make them a low-ball offer and see what happens.

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22 hours ago, YT90SC said:

I wouldn't be scared of a RAV if I knew why it was reaquired, and that the issue had been fixed. Yours seems fairly cut and dried. Simple problem that got bough back due to a parts supply issue (surprise surprise). IF it was really that simple, it wouldn't be any different than any other warranty repair. What I would verify is the warranty status. Seems to me that RAV status changes the warranty significantly, but it has been several years since I dealt with any of them. 

According to the current dealer this truck still carries the remainder of the factory warranties including the power-train warranty. Obviously since this is now being sold as a used vehicle there is no longer a manufacturer buy back option. 

BTW, what exactly does RAV stand 4? I assume that is related to this being a leased truck and that is the normal lease return inspection? Sometimes acronyms can be frustrating...😉

Edited by blksn8k2
Added comment about lease

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Found this interesting tidbit on a dealer website:

(This was not the same dealer who is now selling the truck)

Quote

$2500 - Reacquired Vehicles (RAV) Direct Offer*On Approved Credit

DETAILS:
Reacquired Vehicles (RAV) Direct Offer Reacquired Vehicles (RAV) Direct Offer (36244). Valid on 2017/2018/2019 Ford vehicles excluding Ford F-150 RAPTOR, Ford Mustang GT350, Ford Mustang BULLITT, Ford Focus RS. May not combine with private offers. Non-transferable out of household. Limit one per household. U.S. Residents Only. Must redeem using original offer; no duplicates accepted. Take new retail delivery from dealer stock by 03/02/2019. See dealer for qualifications and complete details.

 

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11 hours ago, blksn8k2 said:

Thanks for the reply. The truck is a 2018 with less than 10,000 miles. I'm not so sure the two year warranty on Motorcraft parts applies to warranty repairs. The last time I had any major warranty repair work done at a Ford dealer the replaced part carried a one year warranty from the date of the repair which is similar to what this dealer stated. The only difference is that in this case the one year doesn't start until the vehicle is resold. The other thing to consider is that the current selling dealer is not the same dealer who failed to make the original warranty repair. The vehicle went to auction after the repair was made and a different Ford dealer purchased it.

And as far as the repair, it may be that because this is a 2018 and there were significant changes made to the gen 3 Coyote 5.0L, that the parts were not available within the 30 day period before the Lemon Law provisions kicked in. In other words, it may not have been the dealer's fault that it took too long simply because they couldn't get the parts.

Anyway, I haven't made any decision yet. Just shopping. What I have seen is that because of the end of year fire sales similarly equipped left-over 2018's can be had for around $6000-7000 over the asking price for this truck. I have yet to find another used 2018 equipped exactly like this truck and most of the ones I have found have fewer major options and are selling for a grand or two more than this one. Not exactly apples to apples. More like Macintosh to crab apples. BTW, according to the original window sticker the original MSRP on this truck was over $20,000 more than the current asking price and, again, it has less than 10,000 miles. It wouldn't be so tempting if it didn't have every option I want and then some. If I can't find what I consider a better deal I might make them a low-ball offer and see what happens.

Hi blcksn8k2.  Warranty repairs and the parts involved do not have a 1 year warranty limit. Warranty repairs and parts used are simply warranty repairs, and are covered for the remainder of the Bumper to Bumper and Powertrain Warranties on a vehicle. That is why I question the warranty engine repair only having a 1 year warranty instead of the remainder of the Bumper to Bumper and Powertrain warranties. The selling Dealer and/or Ford is restricting your warranty rights. Either that or Ford is not covering the vehicle under warranty anymore and the Dealer is only offering a 1 year warranty to sell the vehicle more easily (slightly similar to a Salvaged vehicle being sold with no warranty or a limited warranty). Either way, something is not right about the 1 year warranty restriction on the parts involved.

This is still only my thoughts and opinion. And I certainly understand all of the "may be because" discussions.  However, if you don't know what the actual reason is, the "may be because" of this or that reason does not matter and is irrelevant.

Same point applies to the Lemon Law discussion.  Yes, the Lemon law kicks i8n after 30 days and/or X amount of visits with a problem being unresolved.  But it is not as though the truck was brought back after only 30 days.  We don't know how long the problem existed before the previous owner applied for Lemon Law status.  And then the process takes time.  You may be correct and maybe the parts were unavailable. But we don't know the answer to that question. So again, it is irrelevant. All that matters is why the Bumper to Bumper and Powertrain Warranties are artificially restricted and how that may affect you in the future.

Hope you understanding I am only trying to offer you a counterpoint and advice to be wary, since you will be spending a good amount of money and do not know the answers to those questions.

Let us know how you make out and good luck.

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4 hours ago, blksn8k2 said:

According to the current dealer this truck still carries the remainder of the factory warranties including the power-train warranty. Obviously since this is now being sold as a used vehicle there is no longer a manufacturer buy back option. 

BTW, what exactly does RAV stand 4? I assume that is related to this being a leased truck and that is the normal lease return inspection? Sometimes acronyms can be frustrating...😉

Hi blksn8k2. Too bad this same thread is in two different spots.  It makes it harder to give pertinent information in one place. 🙃

You stated in your first post that "The replaced parts carry a one year warranty from the day the vehicle is resold". Therefore, it is important to note that you will not be getting the full factory Bumper to Bumper and Powertrain warranties on that truck, since the warranty on the engine problem leading to the Lemon Law buyback is now a limited warranty and limited to 1 year.

And what exactly, were "the replaced parts"? If you don't know what all the parts which were replaced, what will your Powertrain Warranty cover? Did they only replace the "cam phaser"? More? Maybe the entire engine (I"m exaggerating now to prove the point)? What is no longer covered and why not? It should all be covered under the full Bumper to Bumper and Powertrain warranties, same as it would if you purchased another "used" 2018 with 10,000  miles.

Auto manufacturers do not usually buy back cars for small issues. So if the problem was completely corrected, I have to wonder why the warranty is limited to one year, parts, labor or at all. It should be covered for the entire 5 year/60,000 mile Powertrain warranty. Again, just something to think about before deciding.

Keep us updated and good luck.

Edited by bbf2530

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Topics merged and duplicate posts deleted.

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1 hour ago, akirby said:

Topics merged and duplicate posts deleted.

Hi Allen.  Can you find a way to merge the two different threads without losing posts? At least one of my posts, with additional information, was lost (I believe the last one in the F-150 sub-forum  thread).

Thanks.

Edited by bbf2530

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I hid them because I thought they were exact duplicates.  I unhid them.

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Got the VIN?  I’m sure some of the folks with better access to information might be able to give more insight if they have can see the details of the vehicle. 

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On 12/9/2018 at 12:19 PM, bbf2530 said:

Hi blksn8k2. Too bad this same thread is in two different spots.  It makes it harder to give pertinent information in one place. 🙃

You stated in your first post that "The replaced parts carry a one year warranty from the day the vehicle is resold". Therefore, it is important to note that you will not be getting the full factory Bumper to Bumper and Powertrain warranties on that truck, since the warranty on the engine problem leading to the Lemon Law buyback is now a limited warranty and limited to 1 year.

And what exactly, were "the replaced parts"? If you don't know what all the parts which were replaced, what will your Powertrain Warranty cover? Did they only replace the "cam phaser"? More? Maybe the entire engine (I"m exaggerating now to prove the point)? What is no longer covered and why not? It should all be covered under the full Bumper to Bumper and Powertrain warranties, same as it would if you purchased another "used" 2018 with 10,000  miles.

Auto manufacturers do not usually buy back cars for small issues. So if the problem was completely corrected, I have to wonder why the warranty is limited to one year, parts, labor or at all. It should be covered for the entire 5 year/60,000 mile Powertrain warranty. Again, just something to think about before deciding.

Keep us updated and good luck.

A warranty repair is covered for 1yr/12k if the factory warranty expires prior to that.

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26 minutes ago, blwnsmoke said:

A warranty repair is covered for 1yr/12k if the factory warranty expires prior to that.

Hi blwnsmoke.  Not sure what you're trying to state there.  First, according to your information, it is a 2018 with less than 10,000 miles, so the factory Warranty is not expired and will not be for some time.  Second, if the factory Warranty is expired, then a repair is not a "Warranty repair".

Bottom line is: There is something wrong if the engine/cam phaser repair is only covered for 1 year/12,000 and not covered for the remainder of at least the 3 year/36,000 mile Bumper to Bumpier and possibly even the 5 year/60,000 mile Powertrain Warranty (if applicable).

Buy it if you like, you don't need to justify it to us or anyone else. However, the abnormal Warranty restrictions which the Dealer has put on the purchase show there is some issue they are worried about. The prior Warranty work should be fully covered, not limited to 1 year/12,000 miles. Therefore, you will not have the full 3 year/36,000 mile Bumper to Bumper and possibly not even 5 year/60,000 mile Powertrain Warranty coverage you would normally have on a 2018 with less than 10,000 miles.

Edited by bbf2530

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I think what he’s saying is that if a part is replaced/repaired it carries a 1 yr/12K warranty even if that extends beyond the original factory warranty period.   I don’t think that’s right and I think the 1 yr/12K warranty only applies to repairs done outside the OEM factory warranty.

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17 minutes ago, akirby said:

I think what he’s saying is that if a part is replaced/repaired it carries a 1 yr/12K warranty even if that extends beyond the original factory warranty period.   I don’t think that’s right and I think the 1 yr/12K warranty only applies to repairs done outside the OEM factory warranty.

Hi Allen. Maybe my answer was confusing. I did understand what he was stating.  However, I was pointing out that whether true or not (and like you, I have my questions), it does not apply to his situation, where there is plenty of Bumper to Bumper and Powertrain Warranty remaining on the vehicle. So it is not a justification for the Dealer putting a 1 year/12,000 mile limit on the warranty repairs performed after the previous Lemon Law buy back. And it is not a good rationalization or reason to buy that Lemon Lawed vehicle...in my opinion of course. If anything, it raises more questions.

And I believe that the Ford/Motorcraft warranty for retail repairs is now 2 years.

Hope that is clearer.

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5 minutes ago, bbf2530 said:

Hi Allen. Maybe my answer was confusing. I did understand what he was stating.  However, I was pointing out that whether true or not (and like you, I have my questions), it does not apply to his situation, where there is plenty of Bumper to Bumper and Powertrain Warranty remaining on the vehicle. So it is not a justification for the Dealer putting a 1 year/12,000 mile limit on the warranty repairs performed after the previous Lemon Law buy back. And it is not a good rationalization or reason to buy that Lemon Lawed vehicle...in my opinion of course. If anything, it raises more questions.

And I believe that the Ford/Motorcraft warranty for retail repairs is now 2 years.

Hope that is clearer.

 

But blwnsmoke was not the OP - that was blksn82.

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15 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

But blwnsmoke was not the OP - that was blksn82.

Hi Allen.  Thanks for that correction.  That I did screw up. I'll go back and edit the references to blksna8k2's original posts for clarity.

However, the information blwnsmoke provided was still not applicable and is incorrect.  There is still no reason the selling Dealer should be limiting the Warranty on the Lemon Law repairs to 12 months/12,000 miles. And I know of no company policy stating an across the board 12 month/12,000 mile Warranty after the Bumper to Bumper is expired, for repairs performed before the expiration.

Also just checked and it is a 2 year/unlimited mileage warranty on retail repairs by Ford with Motorcraft parts. 

Thanks for catching that.

EDIT - Ooops, forgot there is a time limit on edits in Blue Oval.  Can not correct for clarity.

Edited by bbf2530

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BTW, the dealer still has that vehicle. The price was recently dropped another $800. I am no longer interested since I already purchased a different truck. All the arguments over the warranty seem somewhat irrelevant to me since I was only repeating exactly what the selling dealer told me. The current dealer who is selling a used vehicle stated that the parts used to make the repair will carry a one year warranty from the date the vehicle is resold and that all other remaining factory warranties still apply. I didn't invent any of that. That is what the dealer stated. You can argue with the dealer if you like. VIN 1FTEW1E57JFA46728

Edited by blksn8k2

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1 hour ago, blksn8k2 said:

BTW, the dealer still has that vehicle. The price was recently dropped another $800. I am no longer interested since I already purchased a different truck. All the arguments over the warranty seem somewhat irrelevant to me since I was only repeating exactly what the selling dealer told me. The current dealer who is selling a used vehicle stated that the parts used to make the repair will carry a one year warranty from the date the vehicle is resold and that all other remaining factory warranties still apply. I didn't invent any of that. That is what the dealer stated. You can argue with the dealer if you like. VIN 1FTEW1E57JFA46728

Hi blksn8k.  You obviously misunderstood what I and others were stating.  No one doubted what you stated the Dealer told you. We believed you when you stated the Dealer told you those things.  What was being questioned was why the Dealer would limit a warranty fix on a lemon-lawed vehicle (or any vehicle for that matter) to 1 year when the vehicle still had more than one year left on the Bumper to Bumper warranty. That is not how warranty repairs work, so the Dealer was pulling a fast one.

Since what the Dealer was telling you made no sense, we were warning you to dig deeper or pass on purchasing that vehicle.

You made a good decision passing on the vehicle.

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Sorry to be late to this discussion and things may have changed since I was working at Ford Engineering.

When the 6.0L PowerStroke came out, Ford bought back dozens and dozens of those vehicles.  The engineers closest to that program told me that the dealer handling the paperwork had the first shot at purchasing the vehicle from Ford (or Red Carpet Lease). Second, they could spend AS MUCH WARRANTY MONEY AS REQUIRED to make the vehicle salable.

Third, and best of all, the customer ultimately purchasing the vehicle would have the "warranty clock" reset !  Yes, the customer would get a bumper-to-bumper 3 year/36,000 mile warranty !  Things might have changed since then, but back then this was a SMOKIN' god deal.

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On 1/10/2019 at 7:11 PM, bbf2530 said:

Hi blksn8k.  You obviously misunderstood what I and others were stating.  No one doubted what you stated the Dealer told you. We believed you when you stated the Dealer told you those things.  What was being questioned was why the Dealer would limit a warranty fix on a lemon-lawed vehicle (or any vehicle for that matter) to 1 year when the vehicle still had more than one year left on the Bumper to Bumper warranty. That is not how warranty repairs work, so the Dealer was pulling a fast one.

Since what the Dealer was telling you made no sense, we were warning you to dig deeper or pass on purchasing that vehicle.

You made a good decision passing on the vehicle.

I didn't buy it based solely on any concerns about warranties. My main concern was future resale value based on it's lemon law history. If it were priced significantly lower than other similarly equipped used trucks or discounted left-over new 2018 trucks I may have considered it more seriously. Why buy a used truck with 6k miles that you know will be worth less in the future when you can buy a similarly equipped used truck for about the same price or a brand new truck with 0 miles for a few thousand more neither of which has the same history? IMO the dealer is still pricing that truck as if it were a used truck that has no lemon law history and is hoping they can sell it to someone who is not paying attention.

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3 hours ago, blksn8k2 said:

I didn't buy it based solely on any concerns about warranties. My main concern was future resale value based on it's lemon law history. If it were priced significantly lower than other similarly equipped used trucks or discounted left-over new 2018 trucks I may have considered it more seriously. Why buy a used truck with 6k miles that you know will be worth less in the future when you can buy a similarly equipped used truck for about the same price or a brand new truck with 0 miles for a few thousand more neither of which has the same history? IMO the dealer is still pricing that truck as if it were a used truck that has no lemon law history and is hoping they can sell it to someone who is not paying attention.

Hi blksn8k2. As stated previously, you made a good decision passing on that lemon-lawed vehicle.

Hope you will be happy with the truck you did purchase.  Good luck.

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