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Michael Kerr

Hybrid tax incentive for 2020 aviator plug-in?

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I've poked around a bit -- it seems like the first 200,000 plugin/hybrids are eligible for the full $7500 incentive.   But is Lincoln counted separate from Ford?   

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It’s by mfr.  I thought Ford had already exhausted their hybrid tax credits but not sure.

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This link shows everything that currently qualifies for a tax credit:

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml 

Doesn’t look like Ford has exhausted the credit yet.  Of course, the Aviator isn’t listed yet. 

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I was thinking of the regular hybrid credits.  I forgot there was a different bogey for plug in vehicles.

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On 11/30/2018 at 5:56 PM, Michael Kerr said:

I've poked around a bit -- it seems like the first 200,000 plugin/hybrids are eligible for the full $7500 incentive.   But is Lincoln counted separate from Ford?   

I don't think it will quality for the full $7500 credit regardless, I don't think the battery is large enough.

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On 12/1/2018 at 5:20 PM, Harley Lover said:

I don't think it will quality for the full $7500 credit regardless, I don't think the battery is large enough.

The amount of credit is based on size of vehicle plus size of battery. The Chrysler Pacifica plug in gets the full $7500 and has a 16kWh battery. I would hope Ford didn’t go smaller then that. Which should mean the full federal tax credit. 

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According to that link above, here are the requirements:

 

 

Quote

To be certified for the credit by the manufacturer, the vehicle must meet the following requirements:

  • The vehicle must be made by a manufacturer (i.e., it doesn't include conventional vehicles converted to electric drive).
  • It must be treated as a motor vehicle for purposes of title II of the Clean Air Act.
  • It must have a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of not more than 14,000 lbs.
  • It must be propelled to a significant extent by an electric motor which draws electricity from a battery which
    • has a capacity of not less than 4 kilowatt hours and
    • is capable of being recharged from an external source of electricity.

The following requirements must also be met for a certified vehicle to qualify:

  • The original use of the vehicle commences with the taxpayer—it must be a new vehicle.
  • The vehicle is acquired for use or lease by the taxpayer, and not for resale. (The credit is only available to the original purchaser of a new, qualifying vehicle. If a qualifying vehicle is leased to a consumer, the leasing company may claim the credit.)
  • The vehicle is used mostly in the United States.
  • The vehicle must be placed in service by the taxpayer during or after the 2010 calendar year.

I would think Aviator should have that.

I would think Aviator should have at least that.

Edited by rmc523

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1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

According to that link above, here are the requirements:

has a capacity of not less than 4 kilowatt hours and

 

I would think Aviator should have at least that.

It will be greater than that, 4kwh is just to be eligible for the base credit,. The larger the battery the larger the credit.  Ford increased the capacity of the 2019 Fusion battery so the Credit went form $4,007 for the 2013-2018 model (7kwh) to $4,609 for the 2019(9kwh). The Aviator battery must be be large enough for China to fulfill the EV range (50km) with the added weight and testing cycle I suspect it will be very close if not exceeding the maximum credit. Ford isn't going to want another PR issue with the hybrid not getting the mileage it should.

 GM is also very close to losing the full credit (will happen next year) and Tesla just lost the full Credit at the end of November. http://evadoption.com/ev-sales/federal-ev-tax-credit-phase-out-tracker-by-automaker/

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OK. so i'm hearing "yes".   which is important, because there is a big delta on the grad-touring vs non-plugin

 

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To achieve the HP/TQ and 30 mile all electric run time, they will need at least 15kWh.  

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On 1/24/2019 at 12:51 PM, mustangchief said:

To achieve the HP/TQ and 30 mile all electric run time, they will need at least 15kWh.  

Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid with 33 mile range has a 16kWh battery.  Aviator will need something larger.

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Range is tricky, there are so many variables it is hard to compare vehicles.  The HP gain with the electric motor is 50HP, so you will be using roughly 37-38 KW to achieve that.  A 15kWh battery could easily eek out 30 miles under the right conditions.  Driving conditions and temperature will be large factors, so the battery should be at least 18kWh to get 30 miles in most all conditions.  

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4 hours ago, mustangchief said:

Range is tricky, there are so many variables it is hard to compare vehicles.  The HP gain with the electric motor is 50HP, so you will be using roughly 37-38 KW to achieve that.  A 15kWh battery could easily eek out 30 miles under the right conditions.  Driving conditions and temperature will be large factors, so the battery should be at least 18kWh to get 30 miles in most all conditions.  

I agree the battery will probably have to be at least 18kWh. I was using the Pacifica hybrid as an example based on size and weight.  The Aviator should be heavier so it will need a larger battery. Not sure if the  electric motor is only  50 hp - that would never move the Aviator in Electric Only mode except at a snails pace - unacceptable.  For all we know the GT is using the 365 hp 3.0 with a 150 hp electric motor to net 450+ total.

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HP is not additive. Peak torque for em's is at 0 rpm. They produce almost constant torque from just off of 0 rpm to peak power and then will hold constant power to peak efficiency. With that, knowing that the standard 3.0l is 400lbft of torque, and the GT will have 600, you will have to have an em capable of at least 200lbft at 2750 rpm. That is 105 hp or about 78 kW. Ford uses an 88 kW em in the Fusion. My guess is that the GT will use at least an 88 kW em up to maybe a 100 kW em that is current controlled to limit the max torque and peak power in combined mode.

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3 hours ago, Flying68 said:

HP is not additive. Peak torque for em's is at 0 rpm. They produce almost constant torque from just off of 0 rpm to peak power and then will hold constant power to peak efficiency. With that, knowing that the standard 3.0l is 400lbft of torque, and the GT will have 600, you will have to have an em capable of at least 200lbft at 2750 rpm. That is 105 hp or about 78 kW. Ford uses an 88 kW em in the Fusion. My guess is that the GT will use at least an 88 kW em up to maybe a 100 kW em that is current controlled to limit the max torque and peak power in combined mode.

I hope you are wrong in your calculations.  If the  electric motor  is even only 100kW / 134 hp the Aviator would be a slug in all electric mode. The Fusion energi has a 0-60 in all electric mode of about 15 seconds.

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On 12/3/2018 at 9:19 AM, rmc523 said:

According to that link above, here are the requirements:

 

 

I would think Aviator should have at least that.

Just as a reference, the Volvo XC90 Plug-In is rated at 10.4kwh.

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6 hours ago, Willwll313wll said:

XC90 rated at 19 electric miles

And only uses an 87 hp (65 kW) em.

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1 hour ago, Flying68 said:

And only uses an 87 hp (65 kW) em.

The Porsche Cayenne PHEV has an  electric motor with 134 hp and 295lb-ft of torque - and it is a much smaller vehicle - as is the XC90 vs the Aviator.

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