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Hybrid tax incentive for 2020 aviator plug-in?


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On 11/30/2018 at 5:56 PM, Michael Kerr said:

I've poked around a bit -- it seems like the first 200,000 plugin/hybrids are eligible for the full $7500 incentive.   But is Lincoln counted separate from Ford?   

I don't think it will quality for the full $7500 credit regardless, I don't think the battery is large enough.

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On 12/1/2018 at 5:20 PM, Harley Lover said:

I don't think it will quality for the full $7500 credit regardless, I don't think the battery is large enough.

The amount of credit is based on size of vehicle plus size of battery. The Chrysler Pacifica plug in gets the full $7500 and has a 16kWh battery. I would hope Ford didn’t go smaller then that. Which should mean the full federal tax credit. 

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According to that link above, here are the requirements:

 

 

Quote

To be certified for the credit by the manufacturer, the vehicle must meet the following requirements:

  • The vehicle must be made by a manufacturer (i.e., it doesn't include conventional vehicles converted to electric drive).
  • It must be treated as a motor vehicle for purposes of title II of the Clean Air Act.
  • It must have a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of not more than 14,000 lbs.
  • It must be propelled to a significant extent by an electric motor which draws electricity from a battery which
    • has a capacity of not less than 4 kilowatt hours and
    • is capable of being recharged from an external source of electricity.

The following requirements must also be met for a certified vehicle to qualify:

  • The original use of the vehicle commences with the taxpayer—it must be a new vehicle.
  • The vehicle is acquired for use or lease by the taxpayer, and not for resale. (The credit is only available to the original purchaser of a new, qualifying vehicle. If a qualifying vehicle is leased to a consumer, the leasing company may claim the credit.)
  • The vehicle is used mostly in the United States.
  • The vehicle must be placed in service by the taxpayer during or after the 2010 calendar year.

I would think Aviator should have that.

I would think Aviator should have at least that.

Edited by rmc523
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1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

According to that link above, here are the requirements:

has a capacity of not less than 4 kilowatt hours and

 

I would think Aviator should have at least that.

It will be greater than that, 4kwh is just to be eligible for the base credit,. The larger the battery the larger the credit.  Ford increased the capacity of the 2019 Fusion battery so the Credit went form $4,007 for the 2013-2018 model (7kwh) to $4,609 for the 2019(9kwh). The Aviator battery must be be large enough for China to fulfill the EV range (50km) with the added weight and testing cycle I suspect it will be very close if not exceeding the maximum credit. Ford isn't going to want another PR issue with the hybrid not getting the mileage it should.

 GM is also very close to losing the full credit (will happen next year) and Tesla just lost the full Credit at the end of November. http://evadoption.com/ev-sales/federal-ev-tax-credit-phase-out-tracker-by-automaker/

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  • 1 month later...

Range is tricky, there are so many variables it is hard to compare vehicles.  The HP gain with the electric motor is 50HP, so you will be using roughly 37-38 KW to achieve that.  A 15kWh battery could easily eek out 30 miles under the right conditions.  Driving conditions and temperature will be large factors, so the battery should be at least 18kWh to get 30 miles in most all conditions.  

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4 hours ago, mustangchief said:

Range is tricky, there are so many variables it is hard to compare vehicles.  The HP gain with the electric motor is 50HP, so you will be using roughly 37-38 KW to achieve that.  A 15kWh battery could easily eek out 30 miles under the right conditions.  Driving conditions and temperature will be large factors, so the battery should be at least 18kWh to get 30 miles in most all conditions.  

I agree the battery will probably have to be at least 18kWh. I was using the Pacifica hybrid as an example based on size and weight.  The Aviator should be heavier so it will need a larger battery. Not sure if the  electric motor is only  50 hp - that would never move the Aviator in Electric Only mode except at a snails pace - unacceptable.  For all we know the GT is using the 365 hp 3.0 with a 150 hp electric motor to net 450+ total.

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  • 2 weeks later...

HP is not additive. Peak torque for em's is at 0 rpm. They produce almost constant torque from just off of 0 rpm to peak power and then will hold constant power to peak efficiency. With that, knowing that the standard 3.0l is 400lbft of torque, and the GT will have 600, you will have to have an em capable of at least 200lbft at 2750 rpm. That is 105 hp or about 78 kW. Ford uses an 88 kW em in the Fusion. My guess is that the GT will use at least an 88 kW em up to maybe a 100 kW em that is current controlled to limit the max torque and peak power in combined mode.

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3 hours ago, Flying68 said:

HP is not additive. Peak torque for em's is at 0 rpm. They produce almost constant torque from just off of 0 rpm to peak power and then will hold constant power to peak efficiency. With that, knowing that the standard 3.0l is 400lbft of torque, and the GT will have 600, you will have to have an em capable of at least 200lbft at 2750 rpm. That is 105 hp or about 78 kW. Ford uses an 88 kW em in the Fusion. My guess is that the GT will use at least an 88 kW em up to maybe a 100 kW em that is current controlled to limit the max torque and peak power in combined mode.

I hope you are wrong in your calculations.  If the  electric motor  is even only 100kW / 134 hp the Aviator would be a slug in all electric mode. The Fusion energi has a 0-60 in all electric mode of about 15 seconds.

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  • 3 weeks later...
2 hours ago, mustangchief said:

The weight difference between the GT and Regular is 800 lbs, it should be a pretty hefty battery.  Disappointed to see the 1100lb towing capacity loss also with the GT, but 5600 is still decent.   

Towing is not the point, Performance is. You want towing with a hybrid that's what Explorer is for. 

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2 hours ago, mustangchief said:

The weight difference between the GT and Regular is 800 lbs, it should be a pretty hefty battery.  Disappointed to see the 1100lb towing capacity loss also with the GT, but 5600 is still decent.   

Good catch.  Is that the regular AWD? If so, that sounds promising for the electric side. Maybe 20kWh battery.  Need an honest 50km range + decent size electric motor.

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10 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Towing is not the point, Performance is. You want towing with a hybrid that's what Explorer is for. 

Agree with you to a point, but an occasional tow for some of us is important.  The explorer *is up to 5000 (not yet officially rated) also is not in the comfort class of Lincoln.   Porsche Hybrids pull 7200lbs.  For heavy jobs I have a F150.  Sometimes you just like to ride in luxury pulling a boat.  I was about to get a Gator, when the Aviator showed up.  The performance and comfort is 90% of what I'm after.  The leg and head room is virtually the same as a Gator, the performance of the GT is much better.  Aviator for the win.  I'm the 3rd retail order at the local dealer for a GT when the order banks open for them.  I'd get the BL Flight if we had a dealer in our state.  

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On 3/3/2019 at 9:59 PM, fuzzymoomoo said:

Towing is not the point, Performance is. You want towing with a hybrid that's what Explorer is for. 

 

On 3/4/2019 at 8:26 AM, mustangchief said:

Agree with you to a point, but an occasional tow for some of us is important.  The explorer *is up to 5000 (not yet officially rated) also is not in the comfort class of Lincoln.   Porsche Hybrids pull 7200lbs.  For heavy jobs I have a F150.  Sometimes you just like to ride in luxury pulling a boat.  I was about to get a Gator, when the Aviator showed up.  The performance and comfort is 90% of what I'm after.  The leg and head room is virtually the same as a Gator, the performance of the GT is much better.  Aviator for the win.  I'm the 3rd retail order at the local dealer for a GT when the order banks open for them.  I'd get the BL Flight if we had a dealer in our state.  

The curb weight difference accounts for 781 lb but wonder what led to the further 319 lb reduction?  The 2020 Explorer was announced as 5000 lb for the hybrid, 5300 for 2.3L EcoBoost, and 5600 for the 3.0L ecoBoost. 

The tow capacities seem to be well below what other drive midsize SUV's have. Audi Q7 with the 3.0T has a tow rating of 7700 lb. The Durango is 6200 lb with the base V6, 7200 lb with the 5.7 hemi and 8400 in SRT trim. Porsche Cayenne and Range Rover are both 7700 lb (Land Rover Discovery can get up to 8200 lb). All those are with less HP/Torque than the Aviator has. I guess I expected somewhere along the lines of 7500 lb or so to be more competitive with the Q7.  5600 lb doesn't leave a lot of margin on the GT.  Makes me wonder if they are derating the 3.0L from 400hp/400lbft to something less and then making up the rest with the electric motor.

My main objective was to be able to tow a smallish camper or my UTV into the mountains.  The UTV weights 2000 lb and with another 2000 lb for our trailer (UTV needs a 14' trailer), puts me right at 4000 lb loaded.

Edited by Flying68
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