Born in Detroit, Made in America & Famous Worldwide

[coupe3w]

Way to misunderstand the point (again).

 

Where is GM’s Focus ST? Fiesta ST? Focus RS? Mustang GT350 or GT500? Raptor? Ford has an entire division dedicated to producing all these vehicles. GM doesn’t.

 

Yes, they have Corvette and you can’t argue with bang for the buck, but Ford has the GT and it outperforms all but one specially made Corvette. The GT was built specifically for LeMans and built around a race legal engine. The race legal Corvette engine is a NA 5.5L, so GM had to put a supercharger and an extra .7 Litres of displacement to beat the GT on one track. Ford can sell a GT for $4M+ AND it beat Corvette at LeMans yet you think GM wins because it threw a big honking engine in a $70K corvette? Ford is laughing all the way to the bank.

 

GM has always stuffed big engines in Camaro, Corvette and Silverado. Ford takes a much different approach with a focus on overall performance and production vehicles.

 

GM builds performance vehicles to beat Ford in magazine comparisons. Ford builds performance vehicles to win real races and to sell and make money.

 

Where is Fords Focus ST , Fiesta ST Focus RS? Ford is killing these cars off did you forget that part? Ya Ford built the Gt to compete in LeMans so what. it's over priced and being beat on the track and on the street by the Vette for 1/3 the price. And how many GT's have been built? No where near what they said would be built by this time. Who cares how much bigger the engine is in the Vette it still kick the snot out of the GT. Come on akiby you can't cover for all of Fords short comings with just the profit comment you faithfully use to cover for their screw ups in the performance realm. Ford is getting the ass kicked left and right by GM constantly.

[fuzzymoomoo]

Henry Ford was no follower and he didnt put up with just good enough attitudes towards car building.

Eh, not exactly. He fought woth Edsel tooth and nail to keep the model T in production because he didn't see the need to update to the Model A, despite the fact that Chevy had well surpassed the Model T. He viewed the Model T as good enough.

[coupe3w]

Henry also didn't want to change over to juice brakes. Said it was foolish and the fluid would freeze in the winter.

[Stray Kat]

Eh, not exactly. He fought woth Edsel tooth and nail to keep the model T in production because he didn't see the need to update to the Model A, despite the fact that Chevy had well surpassed the Model T. He viewed the Model T as good enough.

I disagree with you. Henry thought the Model T was the perfect car and was hesitant to change it. It had nothing to do with trying to short change the customer. Ask yourself, what was Henry’s response to the fact that Gm and Chrysler began to produce 6 cylinder engines in their low price range of cars?

[Stray Kat]

Henry also didn't want to change over to juice brakes. Said it was foolish and the fluid would freeze in the winter.

That may be what you hear in folklore but the reality is there was a problem with making a deal with Bendix. Hence Ford started with Lockheed brakes in 1939.

[Stray Kat]

By the way - let’s say Ford made all the parts available and people STILL put Chevy engines in them. What is Ford supposed to do?

Listen Akirby you’re spinning this into your standard narrative which is basically, “why should Ford do anything that doesn’t add to the bottom line”?

 

Last time I checked the title of this thread was, “Born in Detroit, Made in America, & Famous Worldwide”.

 

This is an ad campaign where Ford is channeling their past. Am I mistaken here?

 

If Ford is only gonna do Mustangs and F150’s they’re not gonna be the same motor company I grew up with. For example the F150 owes much of it’s best seller status is because it belonged to a full range of Ford trucks. That’s F, C, and L trucks. The F series developed a reputation as a real high grade truck due to the family of real high grade trucks it belongs to.

 

This is what bean counters can never understand. The intangibles. Without Ford’s vast experience in trucks and vans the F150 becomes the American Honda Ridgeline.

 

Same for Mustang. The only reason that car made it was because of trickle down and trickle up economies of scale. You take a Falcon platform and mix in the Fairlane V8 and powertrain and viola’ you get a smash hit that is affordable and appealing. No one “needs” a Mustang they “want” a Mustang. Do you own one? My wife has an ‘05 Convertible. I can tell you it’s fun with the top down but it’s not practical like our Mercury Montego.

 

None of this speaks to the point I’m trying to get across. Ford has a department that handles special interest concerns. Why even have that really? But they do have a department called Ford Performance Parts. A few years ago there was going to be 12 new performance cars and the whole Ford Performance division was getting restructured from the old Ford Motorsports department.

 

The issues that I’d like to see addressed would not even be pocket change for Ford. Didn’t you see where I stated that Ford Performance doesn’t really build much in house. Most everything is made by aftermarket contractors and Ford branded. Ford engineers probably are involved in the design process only. Additionally I’m not talking about high tech here. I’m talking about pulleys, brackets, oil pans and water pumps.

 

I recently read that back in the day Ford engineers like Jack Roush and Wayne Gapp worked on special projects on their own time, back when had no official presence in racing etc.

 

No Akirby I’m not talking about a billion dollars, I’m talking about a couple hundred thousand spent maybe tops. Put the right person on the job and watch things happen.

[akirby]

Where is Fords Focus ST , Fiesta ST Focus RS? Ford is killing these cars off did you forget that part? Ya Ford built the Gt to compete in LeMans so what. it's over priced and being beat on the track and on the street by the Vette for 1/3 the price. And how many GT's have been built? No where near what they said would be built by this time. Who cares how much bigger the engine is in the Vette it still kick the snot out of the GT. Come on akiby you can't cover for all of Fords short comings with just the profit comment you faithfully use to cover for their screw ups in the performance realm. Ford is getting the ass kicked left and right by GM constantly.

 

Well then I guess everyone just cancelled their $450K Ford GT order and went and bought a Corvette, right?

 

They don’t give a rat’s ass about some magazine comparison test because that stuff only matters for bragging rights in Internet forums.

 

Camaro is faster at Willow Springs yet Mustang routinely outsells it because the Mustang is a better all around car not just a track king.

 

The GT was built specifically to win LeMans not to be the fastest street car. The Corvette beat Ferrari and Lamborghini in that test also - do you think they care?

 

 

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong or that Ford is better than GM, I’m just telling you that Ford doesn’t share your priorities when it comes to performance vehicles. I happen to agree with their approach but that’s irrelevant.

[akirby]

Listen Akirby you’re spinning this into your standard narrative which is basically, “why should Ford do anything that doesn’t add to the bottom line”?

Last time I checked the title of this thread was, “Born in Detroit, Made in America, & Famous Worldwide”.

This is an ad campaign where Ford is channeling their past. Am I mistaken here?

If Ford is only gonna do Mustangs and F150’s they’re not gonna be the same motor company I grew up with. For example the F150 owes much of it’s best seller status is because it belonged to a full range of Ford trucks. That’s F, C, and L trucks. The F series developed a reputation as a real high grade truck due to the family of real high grade trucks it belongs to.

This is what bean counters can never understand. The intangibles. Without Ford’s vast experience in trucks and vans the F150 becomes the American Honda Ridgeline.

Same for Mustang. The only reason that car made it was because of trickle down and trickle up economies of scale. You take a Falcon platform and mix in the Fairlane V8 and powertrain and viola’ you get a smash hit that is affordable and appealing. No one “needs” a Mustang they “want” a Mustang. Do you own one? My wife has an ‘05 Convertible. I can tell you it’s fun with the top down but it’s not practical like our Mercury Montego.

None of this speaks to the point I’m trying to get across. Ford has a department that handles special interest concerns. Why even have that really? But they do have a department called Ford Performance Parts. A few years ago there was going to be 12 new performance cars and the whole Ford Performance division was getting restructured from the old Ford Motorsports department.

The issues that I’d like to see addressed would not even be pocket change for Ford. Didn’t you see where I stated that Ford Performance doesn’t really build much in house. Most everything is made by aftermarket contractors and Ford branded. Ford engineers probably are involved in the design process only. Additionally I’m not talking about high tech here. I’m talking about pulleys, brackets, oil pans and water pumps.

I recently read that back in the day Ford engineers like Jack Roush and Wayne Gapp worked on special projects on their own time, back when had no official presence in racing etc.

No Akirby I’m not talking about a billion dollars, I’m talking about a couple hundred thousand spent maybe tops. Put the right person on the job and watch things happen.

I already said it would be nice if they did some of those things. The only thing we disagree about is whether NOT doing it hurts Ford in some way and I don’t think it does. You disagree so let’s move on.

[coupe3w]

That may be what you hear in folklore but the reality is there was a problem with making a deal with Bendix. Hence Ford started with Lockheed brakes in 1939.

I don't think it's folklore. Been published in a few books. But I guess if you were there maybe you have more insight then what was published.

[fuzzymoomoo]

I disagree with you. Henry thought the Model T was the perfect car and was hesitant to change it. It had nothing to do with trying to short change the customer. Ask yourself, what was Henrys response to the fact that Gm and Chrysler began to produce 6 cylinder engines in their low price range of cars?

Right, and for a while that was true. But then Chevy had built a better car than the T, and the market and Edsel both knew it and sales were starting to show it, and Henry still refused to back down.

[coupe3w]

Well then I guess everyone just cancelled their $450K Ford GT order and went and bought a Corvette, right?

 

They don’t give a rat’s ass about some magazine comparison test because that stuff only matters for bragging rights in Internet forums.

 

Camaro is faster at Willow Springs yet Mustang routinely outsells it because the Mustang is a better all around car not just a track king.

 

The GT was built specifically to win LeMans not to be the fastest street car. The Corvette beat Ferrari and Lamborghini in that test also - do you think they care?

 

 

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong or that Ford is better than GM, I’m just telling you that Ford doesn’t share your priorities when it comes to performance vehicles. I happen to agree with their approach but that’s irrelevant.

How much profit do you think Ford is making on the GT? At the snails pace they are producing them they aren't making much. Rich people buy them for the prestige and I haven't seen but one on the road. Ford wants the people that buy them to promote the product, but jet I haven't seen one at any car shows I go to except the Ford Nationals at Carlisle PA and they parade them around and that's it. The new GT is a complete failure in my book. The older ones were much better.

Yes, the Mustang out sells the Camaro, but the Camaro out performs the Mustang. So it depends on which bragging rights you want. I know you are all about profits and that's fine. I like performance and Ford is always behind in performance compared to GM.

[Bob Rosadini]

Well to quote StrayKat.......

 

........Last time I checked the title of this thread was, “Born in Detroit, Made in America, & Famous Worldwide”.

This is an ad campaign where Ford is channeling their past. Am I mistaken here?

 

For sure when I started this thread I was focused on a particular ad which I think highlighted Ford's heritage and the fact it is still a family business. I think both are key factors that shouldn't be ignored and should be highlighted.

 

We've had little conversation about that aspect however and here we are on our fourth page and most of it involves flatheads vs. mod motors vs. LS GMs and has Ford missed the boat by not doing more to support the aftermarket enthusiast market-at least I think that is what the "traffic" has been about.

 

I'm not about to get into that pissing contest as good points have been raised by both sides on that issue, but to get back to the ad, I was glad to see it. And I have to say, if the day came when the family sold out, would my loyalty continue? I have to say, probably not. Or it certainly would not exist to the degree it does today. Am I a minority who feels that way? Perhaps-but I think it is something that few giant corporations today can claim and Ford should do everything it can to continue to foster that family ownership.

 

When the Rouge had that explosion 10 + years ago, I understand that the fact Bill Ford went immediately to the scene was widely noted and appreciated by employees. The face of Ford is not a faceless corporate entity. That should be worth something.

 

And as for "heritage" the ad campaign should dig deep into that heritage. For example the "East Bound and Down" ad is great-but would it hurt to show more history in such an ad by showing perhaps more of Ford's manufacturing history-like a few Louisvilles in the parade pulling a 555 on a trailer- yeah I'm sure there aren't many regular posters on this site that know what a Louisville or "555" is but you can bet your boots that when people are watching the NFL today and that ad comes on, there would be a lot of viewers who would see that and it would bring a smile to their face-and some good memories.

 

That stuff does count- yes and AK don't bother to remind me that I'm old-I still have disposable income

[SoonerLS]

How much profit do you think Ford is making on the GT? At the snails pace they are producing them they aren't making much. Rich people buy them for the prestige and I haven't seen but one on the road. Ford wants the people that buy them to promote the product, but jet I haven't seen one at any car shows I go to except the Ford Nationals at Carlisle PA and they parade them around and that's it. The new GT is a complete failure in my book.

Are you out of your cotton pickin' mind?

Every.

GT.

Is.

Already.

Sold.

 

ALL OF THEM. THE ENTIRE PRODUCTION RUN.

 

That is a walk-off grand slam in Game 7 of the World Series. That is so far from a "complete failure" that it's not even on the same continent.

 

And the profit margin on a $450K car is going to be HUGE.

[akirby]

The new GT is a complete failure in my book.

Well then you need to find a new book. It was literally created to win LeMans - that’s why they used the 3.5L ecoboost engine. Anything much larger would not have been legal and would have been hampered by BOP anyway. And in order to race them they have to sell a certain number to the public.

 

They won LeMans and they’re selling every GT they can make for $450K each. How you can possibly even think that’s a failure is ridiculous. I guess every Lamborghini, McLaren and Ferrari are also failures.

 

By the way, if it’s so bad then why is GM copying it?

[akirby]

 

And as for "heritage" the ad campaign should dig deep into that heritage. For example the "East Bound and Down" ad is great-but would it hurt to show more history in such an ad by showing perhaps more of Ford's manufacturing history-like a few Louisvilles in the parade pulling a 555 on a trailer- yeah I'm sure there aren't many regular posters on this site that know what a Louisville or "555" is but you can bet your boots that when people are watching the NFL today and that ad comes on, there would be a lot of viewers who would see that and it would bring a smile to their face-and some good memories.

 

That stuff does count- yes and AK don't bother to remind me that I'm old-I still have disposable income

I think you folks are forgetting that Ford is in the business of selling new vehicles. Nostalgia is great but referencing something that only a few people remember in a 30 second ad just doesn’t make sense.

 

If it was up to me I’d show nothing but 1977 red F100s. But that would be equally silly. Nostalgia has its place but it’s probably not in a 30 second national TV commercial.

[coupe3w]

They might have sold them all, but how many have they produced? Not even 1/3rd. And they didn't receive payment in full, just down payments. How long do you think people are going to wait to receive their cars 2 years 3 years?

And the Vette is far from coping it. Do you see a V6 in the Vette. So if you call going mid-engine coping you would be right. But that's as far as it goes. Nobody cares about La Mans anymore, just Ford. The BOP is a joke anyway.

[twintornados]

Are you out of your cotton pickin' mind?

Every.

GT.

Is.

Already.

Sold.

 

ALL OF THEM. THE ENTIRE PRODUCTION RUN.

 

That is a walk-off grand slam in Game 7 of the World Series. That is so far from a "complete failure" that it's not even on the same continent.

 

And the profit margin on a $450K car is going to be HUGE.

.

Just a note that the term you used is now considered <ahem> "insensitive" in todays PC world

Edited November 4, 2018 by twintornados

[92merc]

How much profit do you think Ford is making on the GT? At the snails pace they are producing them they aren't making much. Rich people buy them for the prestige and I haven't seen but one on the road. Ford wants the people that buy them to promote the product, but jet I haven't seen one at any car shows I go to except the Ford Nationals at Carlisle PA and they parade them around and that's it. The new GT is a complete failure in my book. The older ones were much better.

Yes, the Mustang out sells the Camaro, but the Camaro out performs the Mustang. So it depends on which bragging rights you want. I know you are all about profits and that's fine. I like performance and Ford is always behind in performance compared to GM.

 

I think you basically sum up the big difference in Ford's performance design philosophy. Ford has a specific purpose in mind. Focus ST/RS create a small sporty car. F150 Raptor was a desert runner; a niche that didn't exist before the Raptor. Mustang is a performance car you can live with as a daily runner. GT was halo car designed specifically for Lemans. AND, most importantly, build a performance vehicle that can earn a profit.

 

GM's design philosophy seems to be "Let's build a BMW fighter". ooOh Ford has an off road truck, let's build something to compete with that. Oh man, the GT is getting too much attention, we better build a Corvette to show them up. We can't keep up with the Mustang unless we stick an even bigger motor in our Camaro. Most of GM is just phoning in a charging order to advance up the hill. They don't care about what happens after that. Look! We took the hill!

[fuzzymoomoo]

Someone is completely unaware of the mid-engine corvette coming soon

[mackinaw]

I'm not about to get into that pissing contest as good points have been raised by both sides on that issue, but to get back to the ad, I was glad to see it. And I have to say, if the day came when the family sold out, would my loyalty continue? I have to say, probably not. Or it certainly would not exist to the degree it does today. Am I a minority who feels that way? Perhaps-but I think it is something that few giant corporations today can claim and Ford should do everything it can to continue to foster that family ownership.

No, you're not alone, I feel the same way. I grew up in Dearborn when I was a kid and know how important Ford was, and is, to southeast Michigan, When people asked you where your dad worked, you often said, "he worked for Ford" (not at Ford, but for Ford). Henry Ford's legacy permeates all of the Detroit area. The ad you referenced in your original post does an excellent job in showing the importance of Ford's 115 year old history.

 

I've been a Ford stockholder longer than some on the forum have been alive. Every year a proposal comes up to change the voting structure to eliminate family control, and every year it's voted down. A lot of people want the Ford family to remain in control of the company.

[SoonerLS]

.

Just a note that the term you used is now considered <ahem> "insensitive" in todays PC world

The only people I've ever known who actually picked cotton were a) white, b) mostly Texicans, and c) related to me, so that phrase doesn't hold any negative connotations for me.

 

Well, maybe aside from that Texican part.

[SoonerLS]

They might have sold them all, but how many have they produced? Not even 1/3rd. And they didn't receive payment in full, just down payments. How long do you think people are going to wait to receive their cars 2 years 3 years?

Why don't you go see if you can get your name on the waiting list?

Edited November 4, 2018 by SoonerLS

[mackinaw]

I wasn't going to comment on the ongoing Ford performance discussion, but I'm starting to think the ICE-based hot rod era is dead. All you have to do is to go to YouTube and watch videos of Tesla's blowing the doors of Corvettes, Hellcats and Mustangs. I remain skeptical of BEV's in real world situations, but there's no denying their instant torque. Sub-three second 0-60 times? Insane!

[92merc]

Someone is completely unaware of the mid-engine corvette coming soon

Built in response to Ford's mid engine GT...

[Stray Kat]

Look at how red hot this thread is. Its bringing some lively activity to this board. People think automotive passion doesnt exist? Im literally typing this at a car show put on by a local car club for traditional style cars and its populated by mostly young people.