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I have a list of 19 designs that Ford pioneered or used heavily in their V8 engines that the LS uses. It's more like the SBF than the ABC.

 

I'm not against cross breeding chassis & running gear. I don't like GM crap in Ford, but I've done a number of Ford powered swaps. I did an SS390 70 Chevelle mock up that made some Chevy guys fighting mad. I did a 302 4 speed swap in a Datsun 260 Z. I also did a 351C swap into a Dodge van.

What are they? I find that interesting that there are so many. Not too long ago I was helping my friend put an Lsx in his GTO (Australian). I was standing there jokingly pointing out how the deep skirt casting made it look very Ford-like while he was working away. I could tell he was getting pissed especially after I called it a Y Block so I left. Apparently the GM faithful don't see or acknowledge the similarities.

 

Other things I noticed that night; there are even GM faithful that are getting sick of Ls swaps (my friends dad), they don't say Chevrolet its always Chevy, they always compare the SBC 350 with a Windsor 302 instead of a 351, and as news to me the Ford 9" rear sucks...

Edited by packardbob
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These are 10 I can think of right off hand

 

1) Firing order changed to 5.0, Mod, 351C

 

2) Oiling system changed to SBF design

 

3) Ditto with cooling system

 

4) Cross bolted mains (Ala 406/427 Fe)

 

5) Thrust bearing on #3 main

 

6) Ford 10 bolt head pattern

 

7) LS block is almost a direct copy of the MOD with thicker webbing & adapted cam in block.

 

8) Symmetrical head layout with FE high riser ports

 

9) Plug angles are the same as Ford has used since the FE & Windsor

 

10) Kidney shaped combustion chambers like HI-PO 390 and later FE designs.

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There are Ford fanatics who are also hotrodders and then there are just hotrodders. Based on how many Fords we see with SBCs I'd say the latter group is much more prevalent.

There's an old saying in hotrodding: an idiot with a SBC/LSx is like a frat boy with an erection--they'll stick it in anything.

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Anyone who thinks there is even a smidgen of equivalence because some race cars use 9 Ford rears is seriously deluding himself.

 

Gm and Chrysler have found their way into so many beautiful Ford cars that its part of American pop culture. Its woven into the American automotive lexicon. (Think of the American Graffiti Coupe)

 

It is so pervasive that retired guys are now bastardizing more Fords to replicate the ones they built when they were young or dreamed about when they were young. There is a word for one version called the Fordillac because so many Fords got Caddy engines.

 

My question is do Edsel II, Bill Ford and Henry III pay attention to this and do they care?

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I doubt it.

 

A - they can't stop it even if they wanted to

 

B - Outside of you and maybe a few hundred diehard Ford enthusiasts, I don't think anyone really cares what engine somebody puts in a 1934 Ford, especially when the rest of the car is heavily modified.

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I doubt it.

 

A - they can't stop it even if they wanted to

 

B - Outside of you and maybe a few hundred diehard Ford enthusiasts, I don't think anyone really cares what engine somebody puts in a 1934 Ford, especially when the rest of the car is heavily modified.

Wild thought. Is perhaps the "Ford Proud" campaign going to help? No argument that bastardized early Fords never entered the minds of the people that came up with this program, but if I use myself as an example-- 11 Fords between myself and two sons-are we not the people that Ford is all of a sudden working to keep in the fold..

 

And for sure, if you think that there are but .."a few hundred diehard Ford enthusiasts".. the new campaign is a total waste of money.

Now I would not argue that in my case we are at one end of the spectrum but "enthusiasts" have to have some impact on how others think about Ford.

 

I can't tell you how many times friends have said words to the effect..."Well Bob I'm going to make your day- I bought a Ford"

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Wild thought. Is perhaps the "Ford Proud" campaign going to help? No argument that bastardized early Fords never entered the minds of the people that came up with this program, but if I use myself as an example-- 11 Fords between myself and two sons-are we not the people that Ford is all of a sudden working to keep in the fold..

 

And for sure, if you think that there are but .."a few hundred diehard Ford enthusiasts".. the new campaign is a total waste of money.

Now I would not argue that in my case we are at one end of the spectrum but "enthusiasts" have to have some impact on how others think about Ford.

 

I can't tell you how many times friends have said words to the effect..."Well Bob I'm going to make your day- I bought a Ford"

 

I specifically meant Ford enthusiasts who care about classic Ford hot rods and whether they have a Ford or Chevy engine.

 

There are tens of millions of Ford enthusiasts who care about Ford and the advertising is targeted to new vehicle buyers, not hot rodders building 80 yr old cars.

 

It seems pretty obvious that GM and Ford decided to spend their high performance dollars in different ways. GM spent theirs on aftermarket parts and racing programs while Ford built production vehicles (Raptor, ST, RS, GT350, GT). So the question is would you rather sell crate engines or Raptors and GT350s? Pretty sure the profits are a bit higher on the latter.

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I specifically meant Ford enthusiasts who care about classic Ford hot rods and whether they have a Ford or Chevy engine.

 

There are tens of millions of Ford enthusiasts who care about Ford and the advertising is targeted to new vehicle buyers, not hot rodders building 80 yr old cars.

 

It seems pretty obvious that GM and Ford decided to spend their high performance dollars in different ways. GM spent theirs on aftermarket parts and racing programs while Ford built production vehicles (Raptor, ST, RS, GT350, GT). So the question is would you rather sell crate engines or Raptors and GT350s? Pretty sure the profits are a bit higher on the latter.

 

 

Akirby, I admire your knowledge and concise analysis of most things Ford but with all due respect you’re wrong on this one.

 

Let me explain my viewpoint. See in my opinion automobiles at least up until now are more than appliances to get from A to B. They are machines that often evoke passion and strong emotion when used enthusiastically. May I remind everyone that in the early days of motoring a very fortunate few were able to enjoy the freedom that an automobile enabled them to have. Suddenly people were lifted from the drudgery of the farm and agricultural life and they could look forward to adventure and dreaming of new things.

 

Henry Ford put “Everyman” behind the wheel and into a new life really. People today don’t realize this. When FoMoCo was young and pure there was a great amount of excitement with each evolutionary step. First it was the Model T and that got average people on wheels and out into the countryside. Very early on young people were sprucing up Model T’s and stripping them down to resemble and perform like much more expensive factory hot rods like the Mercer Raceabout or the Stutz Bearcat.

 

A new phenomenon sprang up and it was the aftermarket and accessory industry. You could buy almost anything to spruce up your T or transform it into a tool for your farm or even a tractor or snowmobile.

 

Next up was the Model A which was a beautiful automobile. Most people don’t realize this but Edsel Ford was instrumental in the style of the Model A and he chose the colors and fabrics as well. The Model A was quite literally a scaled down Lincoln that again the average person could afford. Now the speed industry really exploded. Guys were really hopping up those old 4 bangers and they were really impressive for their time. In fact it took a few years for the V8’s to beat those worked up 4 bangers.

 

As we all know in 1932 Henry Ford set the automotive world on its ear with the ‘32 Deuce V8. No where else could you get so much bang for your buck at least in North America and those 32’s were beautiful! Again those were scaled down ‘33 Lincoln’s.

 

With the V8 Ford separates itself from the rest pretty much until 1949. The V8 was compact and responsive. Not only did it become a legendary engine it was the way it was carried in the cars that made them really sporty. They were as short as a 4 cylinder and had a lover center of gravity due to the cylinder banks set in a Vee one on each side. They were set behind the front axle and spindle centerline pretty much like a Corvette is today. This was a radical departure from the tall and long 6 and 8 cylinder inliners offered by the other guys.

 

Ford’s appeal to the automotive enthusiast in those days was almost second to none. Sure young people probably dreamed of Duesenbergs and Cadillacs but in reality they were Ford people. Ford was the “lively one” in those days. Additionally somehow Ford managed with a fraction of the resources that General Motors had, to build some of the most beautiful and timeless cars ever made.

 

General Motors and Chrysler were very aware of the advantage Ford held with the youthful buyers. In 1949 and 1951 respectfully each one took their shot across Ford’s now to capture some of that market. FoMoCo was in a world of hurt after WWII and were not able to match GM and Chryco step for step at least as far as powertrain advancements went. The Kettering V8’s and the Mopar hemis torpedoed Ford’s position in the youth market. When chevrolet dropped their very Flathead-like configured small block it was all over. Overnight Flathead engines went from heroes to zeros since there was no such thing as nostalgia in the 50’s only better performance.

 

Funny thing is the Ford vehicles themselves were still the go to cars to make lightweight performance and/or race cars. Few other makes were as favored as the little Fords.

 

Ford Motor Company or the Ford family has never answered this crushing onslaught from the lesser two of the Big 3. I find that incredible really. Ford gave away their image. Sure they were Ford silohettes but all the enthusiasts knew proven route was to toss the Ford “heart” and install brand x,y or z.

 

You say who cares right? Well I say look at a company like Porsche. They started as a performance oriented company and they remain true to their heritage. Now I get it Ford is a full line automaker and Porsche is not but in every conceivable way the two companies are originals and have rich heritage. The difference is Porsche has groomed themselves and held their proud history up as a marker of their character and Ford has unfortunately let theirs go. Frankly I’m astonished that Ford which is still largely a family run business has not found some way to reclaim their heritage. Sorry guys but when most people think think of the quintessential ‘32 Ford hot rod they think of a small block Chevy being proudly displayed between the frame rails more often than they ever think of an actual Ford engine being first choice. That’s pretty pathetic in all honesty.

 

Why? Who cares right? Well I think it matters because what it says about Ford. I think it’s really a huge negative that carries on today in that it suggests Ford is not good enough or competent enough to even supply an engine that would be first choice for the blasted cars that bear their own name. It really cries out loser for Ford and they have never answered.

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I doubt very seriously that Porsche makes factory crate engines for a 356.

 

I understand completely why a very small group of Ford enthusiasts are upset. But I think it says far more about Ford that they’re still building Mustangs and F150s that are best in class and they’re building a LeMans winning Ford GT.

 

They’re not ignoring performance or their heritage. They’re just focusing it on different areas that are much more relevant to today’s Ford and to new car sales and profits.

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Well Akirby, you seem to be saying that Porsche doesnt make any substantive moves to preserve their past and while I dont know what their crate engine program looks like I can assure you Porsche takes care of their own. Thats why you have people called Porschiphiles. Trust that Porsche is held in high regard among all car enthusiasts.

 

Secondly, and you always turn the conversation this way, is this business about crate engines. Crate engines ARE available from Ford so why do you imply that thats the problem? The lack of crate engines is not the problem. The problem is Ford has never addressed the issues builders incur while using Ford based engines.

 

Ill give you some examples. Ford has a very handy shorty water pump to help ease installation into early chassis but guess what? Thats right there are no pulleys or brackets to go with the shorty pump. Furthermore when Ford did provide pulleys they were expensive billet aluminum deals that were prohibitive costwise to the budget minded builder.

 

Next there is the prevalence of bad information and also the lack of good information available to would be builders or first timers. Way back in the early 2000s Angelo Giampetroni told me there was a technical book in the works to be written by Doc Frohmader regarding vital information to help Ford based projects. It was to be written in such a way that it would dispel misinformation and centralize all pertinent details regarding this subject in one manual. Well I can tell you that never happened.

 

Thirdly I always felt that Ford Performance could have branded a line of crate engines specifically configured and intended for the early cars. Theres a crate engine for ya. If I was the boss those engines would come from Ford with the proper equipment for their intended usage. Not this bullshit where you buy a crate engine now and you have to change the oil pan the water pump and go hunting junkyards for impossible to find brackets and pulleys. Alloway and Kindig can machine their own accessories but not every backyard guy can do that so he gets discouraged. Thats right Ford discourages people from using their stuff when they should be working to ENCOURAGE people to try them.

 

My idea for a name for that crate engine line was Power King. Ford used that name for their first OHVs and it has a great 1950s nostalgic ring to it. I think people would make that connection especially if a little effort was put into the styling of said engines and not just shipped with generic Mustang dress up parts that go on the swap meet table because they were bought but unusable.

 

Lastly I have no idea where you get this idea that Ford chose to spend money on performance cars and Gm spends on performance parts. Thats crazy! Gm spends plenty on performance cars, performance parts and racing in general. In fact I personally think they should be a bit more prudent in their excesses since not that long ago they went belly up. Chrysler too!

 

Furthermore most of Ford Performance parts offerings are Ford branded aftermarket parts anyways. Do you guys think that Ford scratch builds supercharger kits for Mustangs? Hell no! Ford may work with supercharger manufacturers but they dont have the overhead of a supercharger factory in Detroit.

 

If Ford wanted to make a big impact on their heritage cars they could do it for pocket change compared to what they spend on other endeavors. Especially now with the new design and modeling techniques. One visionary inside Ford could compile a range of necessary and pertinent parts and shop the manufacturing of said parts around the entire world really.

 

Ford doesnt want or care about this stuff much so hence the public gets it. Ford is happy with second rate status amongst huge car enthusiasts groups.

 

Again I ask, does Edsel II, Bill or Henry III think about this stuff and if they do why dont they seem to care?

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It seems pretty obvious that GM and Ford decided to spend their high performance dollars in different ways. GM spent theirs on aftermarket parts and racing programs while Ford built production vehicles (Raptor, ST, RS, GT350, GT). So the question is would you rather sell crate engines or Raptors and GT350s? Pretty sure the profits are a bit higher on the latter.

 

What? Like GM doesn't have any performance cars! Camaro SS, ZL1 both of which out perform any Mustang including GT350. The new Corvette outperforms the Ford GT at 1/3 the price. And GM's crate engine program is better than Ford Performance. But that's okay because Fords profits are up? The new Chevy trucks and Ram trucks are starting to bite into the F150 sales also.

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If there was truly a market for these classic parts then the aftermarket would have filled that void already.

 

Would it be nice if Ford did that? Absolutely. Would it stop folks from putting Chevy engines in classic Fords? Of course not.

 

Not saying it’s a bad thing, just trying to explain why Ford isn’t doing it. You guys think that everyone thinks the way you think about these things. I used to think the same way until I realized that enthusiasts are a tiny fraction of the car market. They don’t know anything about platforms or 0-60 times or even which way the engine points.

 

Mustang and F series are today’s heritage vehicles in production continuously since the 50s and 60s. Supporting the aftermarket helps sell new vehicles. That’s obviously not the case with a 32 Ford hot rod.

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What? Like GM doesn't have any performance cars! Camaro SS, ZL1 both of which out perform any Mustang including GT350. The new Corvette outperforms the Ford GT at 1/3 the price. And GM's crate engine program is better than Ford Performance. But that's okay because Fords profits are up? The new Chevy trucks and Ram trucks are starting to bite into the F150 sales also.

Way to misunderstand the point (again).

 

Where is GM’s Focus ST? Fiesta ST? Focus RS? Mustang GT350 or GT500? Raptor? Ford has an entire division dedicated to producing all these vehicles. GM doesn’t.

 

Yes, they have Corvette and you can’t argue with bang for the buck, but Ford has the GT and it outperforms all but one specially made Corvette. The GT was built specifically for LeMans and built around a race legal engine. The race legal Corvette engine is a NA 5.5L, so GM had to put a supercharger and an extra .7 Litres of displacement to beat the GT on one track. Ford can sell a GT for $4M+ AND it beat Corvette at LeMans yet you think GM wins because it threw a big honking engine in a $70K corvette? Ford is laughing all the way to the bank.

 

GM has always stuffed big engines in Camaro, Corvette and Silverado. Ford takes a much different approach with a focus on overall performance and production vehicles.

 

GM builds performance vehicles to beat Ford in magazine comparisons. Ford builds performance vehicles to win real races and to sell and make money.

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If there was truly a market for these classic parts then the aftermarket would have filled that void already.

Would it be nice if Ford did that? Absolutely. Would it stop folks from putting Chevy engines in classic Fords? Of course not.

Not saying it’s a bad thing, just trying to explain why Ford isn’t doing it. You guys think that everyone thinks the way you think about these things. I used to think the same way until I realized that enthusiasts are a tiny fraction of the car market. They don’t know anything about platforms or 0-60 times or even which way the engine points.

Mustang and F series are today’s heritage vehicles in production continuously since the 50s and 60s. Supporting the aftermarket helps sell new vehicles. That’s obviously not the case with a 32 Ford hot rod.

Honestly Akirby you can make mediocrity and neglect seem like virtues.

 

Look guys I’m not saying Ford Motor Company should jeopardize their future by spending kabillions of dollars on past Ford products. What I’m saying is that Ford is a different and quite unique company in that it is 115 years old and still family owned yet more of its heritage vehicles have been destroyed by the bastardization process than all other car makers combined. If Ford were a faceless corporation I could understand accounting only and bottom line is everything. But guys for Pete’s sake Ford has a division that could have taken care of this many years ago. I know I was talking to them about it. Ford screws up too much and resets the staff so it looks to me like those Ford Performance guys are all short timers. Pretty damn hard to initiate a policy and stick to it long enough to see it through.

 

Ford had a “Ford in a Ford” program. They started to scratch the surface a little and it got noticed by the early car crowd but they of course slacked off and it looks dead in the water to me.

 

I tell you what when I was a kid I never thought there’d be 10 different reality tv shows that concern themselves with early hot rods. I was always made to feel like the odd man out because I wasn’t into muscle cars so much like I dug the Flatty era cars. Turns out there’s a ton of people like me who dig this stuff and the parts industry that supports the early car hobby is a billion dollar a year industry. (Do you guys realize you can buy a brand new ‘40 Ford Coupe body today and a modernized Flathead block is soon to be here as well?) I’ll bet that surprises some people on how well received they are.

 

No Akirby, a proud history rich company like Ford, which is really an American icon really, protects it heritage and builds off that. They are wrong to let this go.

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There is no way you can call what they’ve done with Ford Performance, especially with Mustang and F150, mediocrity. And those are far more important to Ford’s heritage and legacy than a chopped and customized 32 Ford hot rod.

 

But you’re ignoring all that because you’re emotionally attached to older hot rods.

 

It’s perfectly fine to be disappointed but you can’t say they don’t care about performance or heritage. They just choose to do it with different products and in different ways than what you want them to do.

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But youre ignoring all that because youre emotionally attached to older hot rods.

 

When you search Ford history on YouTube or on the internet you get the Model T, the assembly line, you get Henrys brilliant but quirky personality you get the Rouge plant you get the $5 dollar a day 40 hour work week.

 

The Mustang and F150 are blips on the radar by comparison. Ford has lost sight of who they are in my opinion. Henry Ford was no follower and he didnt put up with just good enough attitudes towards car building.

 

If it were my grandfathers legacy that was being raped Id figure something out darn quick you could count on that.

 

I think youre missing my point or Im not explaining well Akirby. You wanna sell more cars, then you better be best at the things that matter. Allowing the general public to assume your engines and power trains are junk because theyre last choice for people that use them hard doesnt really bode well for the perception people develop about your brand.

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Just my opinion but I think you're conflating Ford's T Model history with Rodding traditions.

Whatever Ford does now will never undo decades of Chevrolet engine swaps into classic Fords.

 

It's all too late for Ford to grow a conscience and start selling re-manufactured. small and big blocks

if it was my rod, I just go buy all the Ford copy aftermarket block heads and engine components

probably what most serious rodders do anyway.

 

Part of heritage of being a Ford fan is knowing that Ford probably definitely won't support the small enthusiast

never has and never will. Best thing is to forget Ford and just get on and do what we want with our vehicles......

Edited by jpd80
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Blips on the radar???? Now you’re just delusional.

 

Ford sold 15M Model Ts in 19 years.

 

F series have been on sale continuously for 70 years and have probably sold somewhere between 40M-60M.

 

Mustang has been on sale continuously for over 50 years and has sold close to 10M.

 

More importantly, buyers can buy a F150 or a Mustang today and both have high performance options - the best performance ever seen in either model.

 

That’s what buyers care about, not whether some hot rod has Chevy parts. How many people even know those hot rods are Fords?

 

Seriously - go find 1000 potential car buyers at random and ask them what they think about a 32 Ford with a small block Chevy engine. They either won’t have a clue what you’re talking about or they won’t care.

 

It’s like saying that the Camaro being a few tenths of a second faster on the track than a Mustang GT is going to impact sales. It doesn’t because that’s not what is important to buyers. The only ones who care are diehard fans and bench racers.

 

I get that you’re disappointed but trying to say this impacts buyers is way off base.

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