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Ford sees VW cooperation helping with small cars, overseas markets


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Ford has already developed its own BEV platform, but naturally because it's not here yet everybody thinks it's never coming and Ford needs help from VW. Ford's Chinese BEVs are mostly developed by its Chinese partners.

 

If Ford is to remain a global carmaker, it needs help in Europe, SA and China so you can easily see where those alliances become valuable. I'm sure VW would like to even out its financial burden in Europe as well since I'm sure they don't make much money on cars there either.

Edited by Assimilator
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Ford's Model E architecture is pretty similar to MEB and they will hit the market about the same time... So no, I don't think they are talking about sharing. In fact, that is probably the only area that Ford and VW will definitely not share.

 

The sharing will happen with non-core / cheap stuff that neither company wants to spend a lot of money and time on. Not EV where both company knows will lead their sales and profit in the next decade.

 

For VW, the non-core stuff is trucks and light commercial vans. The cheap stuff is replacement for Up! and low end cars for emerging markets.

 

Ford Ford, the non-core stuff is cars outside Europe. The cheap stuff is replacement for Ka and EcoSport outside North America.

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This could be a big deal, much more than what was first alluded to. From today's Detroit Free Press:

 

“It appears that discussions between Volkswagen and Ford are in very advanced stages regarding working jointly in the area of electric vehicles and autonomous vehicles,” said Jon Gabrielsen, an independent market economist who advises automakers and suppliers. "These are extremely critical, ‘must have' technologies that are extremely difficult and time-consuming to develop, and reduce the cost of to the competitive levels necessary to be successful in the marketplace. Hence, sharing their efforts and their technologies should shorten development time, spread risk, and increase joint scale."

He added: “The prospect of Volkswagen and Ford partnering on electric vehicles and autonomous vehicles has the potential to be truly game-changing for both of them as it enables them to pool the best minds of each company around these exciting future growth products.”

“Look, where there’s smoke, there’s fire. And there’s a lot of smoke coming out of Volkswagen and Ford right now,” said John McElroy, longtime industry analyst and host of Autoline.tv. “Clearly, something is afoot. No question, Ford and Volkswagen keep getting closer to making a major announcement. Things are leaking out. It’s coming.”

 

Full article here:

 

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2018/11/01/ford-volkswagen-autonomous-vehicles/1846528002/

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I had the impression MEB and Model E architectures were already coming out of the oven.

But saying they are considering sharing their experiences gives me now the impression they are going back to the drawing boards and and combining the best engineering solutions. That does not seem feasible at this point, though...

Could they already be foreseeing BEV 2.0?

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I had the impression MEB and Model E architectures were already coming out of the oven.

But saying they are considering sharing their experiences gives me now the impression they are going back to the drawing boards and and combining the best engineering solutions. That does not seem feasible at this point, though...

Could they already be foreseeing BEV 2.0?

Joint battery plants, they could agree to a common design and both companies can utilizes the plants. They would then cut out current battery suppliers and help profitability and supply management. It would give them a significant advantage. I also see that in self driving and autonomous vehicles, they can build sensors and such and each manufacture can do what they want with them.

 

On the production side, Ford ends up doing the bulk of work with VW Commercial vehicles and VW ends up doing the bulk for Ford on entry level.

 

Looking at GM and Industry moves of late they know there is recession coming as well as a dramatic shift in how vehicles will operate over the next 25 years.

 

 

Edited by jasonj80
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I agreed with this part of the article:

 

“I believe Ford has had success in working with other companies when the effort is focused on technology or components,” said Jeoff Burris, founder of Plymouth-based Advanced Purchasing Dynamics, a supply chain consultant to auto suppliers primarily in North America. He worked for Ford in 1984-97 and most recently oversaw global responsibilities for purchasing brakes, steering and suspension.

“If VW and Ford are going to work together on technology and then each apply the technology to their own vehicles it makes sense," Burris said. "Development cost is spread over more vehicles. They each get to decide how to apply it to their vehicles,” he said. “If they are talking about developing Ford and VW vehicles from the same platform, I get concerned. There are certain things that make a Ford a Ford and a VW a VW.”

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Regardless of platforms, there certainly is plenty of room for synergy on AV and EV products.

 

Exactly.

 

Ford and VW could collaborate on power systems, autonomous software, even battery designs. And together, they could probably drive a harder bargain against LG Chem, their common supplier.

 

But they will probably each stick with their own platforms because MEB and Model E are inherently tied in with their respective manufacturing process and plants. It's already too late in the process to melt those two together.

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You all have great views and observations on this topic, it makes all the sense to me now that I hear it. However... are those efforts enough to make Europe and South America profitable? I tend to think the solution there is to share assembly plants. Am I being too pessimistic?

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You all have great views and observations on this topic, it makes all the sense to me now that I hear it. However... are those efforts enough to make Europe and South America profitable? I tend to think the solution there is to share assembly plants. Am I being too pessimistic?

Everything we hear now is rumor. For all we know, this supposed collaboration between both companies may totally fall apart in the next few weeks. So, all we can do for now it sit and wait.

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Everything we hear now is rumor. For all we know, this supposed collaboration between both companies may totally fall apart in the next few weeks. So, all we can do for now it sit and wait.

Correct, there's a lot of steps between a workable alliance and liking what each other brings to the table.

Different designs, supplier groups, build processes...so many things to work through to find commonality.

 

What will drive this forward is a desire to save money on both sides, so there's going to be a degree of

rationalization to this plan, what really works together and what needs to remain separate.

Are we talking vans and pick ups? BRIC vehicles? Electrification/AVs? Shared vehicles in Europe/ROW?

 

Hackett's original plan for 8% profit across the company is now in tatters, not gonna happen

so he needs a plan B - this is his "Hail Mary", a punt to keep Ford in the game and get yardage.

Edited by jpd80
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  • 2 weeks later...

On Commercial vehicles, it makes sense for Ford and VW to join forces and develop vans that meet Europe's fast approaching tough emission laws and city exclusion zones. It also makes sense for VW to embrace Ford's next generation T6 truck and SUV platform instead of developing a next generation Amarok and companion SUV. The scales of economy used in those collaborations alone may allow both manufacturers the breathing space to consider other vehicles going forward.

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Ford needs VW more than VW needs Ford: Ford is $158 billion USD in debt, its sock battered, and with no concrete electrification plan in effect, another severe economic downturn combined may lead to demise.

Instead of showing what an electrified Mustang can do by making a current production car fully electrified, Ford chose to show flashy clips of what looks like a CUV or a prototype variant compared to a present in-production model. They also considered naming the vehicle “Mach-1,” homage to the iconic 1968 car that started that moniker. That faced outright backlash on both accounts. The message of electrification about being more power, torque, and speed was mired by Ford’s association of electrification with soccer moms in CUVs. It seems Ford has to show electrification to their customers with vehicles they already know and drive. The message isn’t getting through and is now facing cyber backlash. This is one of the reasons I also believe for the very first time at a major car show event, that an auto maker of performance cars decided to finally stop resistance and fully electrify a current in-production car, instead of having a tuner shop do it. The result is Chevrolet making the special edition Chevy eCOPO Camaro, the 2019 eCOPO shown at 2018 SEMA.

This is also why we haven’t seen Ford make any major moves toward tooling or refitting a factory for EV production lately. They haven’t accomplished much in establishing a supply chain for battery production, that they really need to have their own battery factories, not just supplies, for the kind of scale they’ll need to survive. It seems their plans for their first BEV CUV, which will be their first full production full electric vehicle, the Mustang variant, is in limbo. We still have no idea what it looks like, or what they will call it, and frankly it wouldn’t surprise me if they don’t either. Their “first all electric will have a 300 mile range and will be better than Tesla, and is coming before 2020”, said Ford CTO Raj Nair specifically to Business Insider back in 2015. What are they doing to make it happen? I think they’re waiting because they now realize they can’t do it without help.

I didn't understand these points in the article (which was really long, btw).....he acts as if Ford is going to die tomorrow.

He goes gaga over some one off Camaro?

We've already seen the front and rear of the Mach 1 in rendering form....

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Quote

Ford needs VW more than VW needs Ford: Ford is $158 billion USD in debt, its sock battered, and with no concrete electrification plan in effect, another severe economic downturn combined may lead to demise.

WTF?  As of the last report Ford has $26B CASH and only owes $16B in debt.

The electrification of hybrid utilities is very much in concrete.  Sounds like he thinks the immediate future is all BEVs.   He probably thinks stock price is the be all end all and Tesla is winning.  

 

Idiot.

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2 hours ago, akirby said:

WTF?  As of the last report Ford has $26B CASH and only owes $16B in debt.

The electrification of hybrid utilities is very much in concrete.  Sounds like he thinks the immediate future is all BEVs.   He probably thinks stock price is the be all end all and Tesla is winning.  

 

Idiot.

Exactly, they are counting  customer debt in  Ford credit and wrongly concluding it's all on Ford.

This happened so many times in 2007-2010 when certain people were willing Ford to fail.

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11 hours ago, akirby said:

WTF?  As of the last report Ford has $26B CASH and only owes $16B in debt.

Ford's balance sheet for period ending September 30, 2018 shows the following debts.

  • $3.2B short term debt, payable within 1 year (automotive)
  • $47.5B short term debt, payable within 1 year (Ford Credit)
  • $11.4B long term debt (automotive)
  • $90.6B long term debt (Ford Credit)
  • $0.6B other long term debt

Total debt $153.3B

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

Ford's balance sheet for period ending September 30, 2018 shows the following debts.

  • $3.2B short term debt, payable within 1 year (automotive)
  • $47.5B short term debt, payable within 1 year (Ford Credit)
  • $11.4B long term debt (automotive)
  • $90.6B long term debt (Ford Credit)
  • $0.6B other long term debt

Total debt $153.3B

Maybe so but the article presented that total debt figure as though Ford was was on the verge of failing financially.

Sometimes credibility and ethical standards escape certain journalists...

Edited by jpd80
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