akirby Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 At that time (2009), Toyota was actually #1 in sales volume for U.S. and globally. Fair enough, technically speaking. But they were #1 in sales for several years prior and that's what led them to the bankruptcy filing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 I also think when GM went bankrupt, were they not leasing lots to park the thousands of suv's they had on their hands.?? small cars were in and what did GM have? Thousands of unsold SUVs. I guess Ford thinks those swings will not happen again. Or will the surviving platforms allow an immediate shift to what we know as a "car"?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 I also think when GM went bankrupt, were they not leasing lots to park the thousands of suv's they had on their hands.?? small cars were in and what did GM have? Thousands of unsold SUVs. Theyre still doing that. FCA too. There's several lots around my house that are loaded with unsold cars. There's one across from the Ford proving ground in Dearborn loaded with Traverses and Acadias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 I also think when GM went bankrupt, were they not leasing lots to park the thousands of suv's they had on their hands.?? small cars were in and what did GM have? Thousands of unsold SUVs. I guess Ford thinks those swings will not happen again. Or will the surviving platforms allow an immediate shift to what we know as a "car"?? That was a combination of a recession and higher gas prices along with trucks and SUVs having terrible fuel economy relative to cars. Today that's no longer the case. My F150 with 460 lb ft of torque and 13K lb towing capacity gets 22 mpg in daily driving around town. Most SUVs and CUVs are in the 20-30 mpg range now. A 2018 Expedition with the 3.5LEB gets a combined 20 mpg. A 2006 Expedition with the much lower power 5.4L V8 got 14 mpg. Explorer with the 2.3LEB gets 22. Ford is hedging their fuel economy bets with hybrid utilities. If people want utilities (no reason to think that's going to change) and Ford has hybrid utilities that get 35-40 mpg then that will put them way ahead of the competition if gas prices go way up. Same with F150 and Mustang. I don't see any scenario in which people switch back to cars any time soon. People have grown up with utilities since the early 90s and now they can get all the amenities and fairly close to the same fuel economy as a similar sized car, so that's what they want. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevensecondsuv Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Theyre still doing that. FCA too. There's several lots around my house that are loaded with unsold cars. There's one across from the Ford proving ground in Dearborn loaded with Traverses and Acadias. A coworker just bought a traverse. Had to travel 3 hours away to find what he wanted and then paid nearly MSRP (close to $50k) for it because nobody would deal, citing tight supply and short time on the lot. It appears GM's strategy of keeping inventory on holding lots to maintain tight supply at the dealers lot is working to increase ATPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 So the question will be what's going in there to replace both... Radical idea, OAP does domestic and exports of Edge to ROW in LHD and RHD, what if Mustang was moved there, that would free up a lot of space for new products at Flat Rock....I know it's not happening but just sayin'. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sort of white space Flex replacement. Unlikely perhaps, but I don't think it'd be crazy. In the meantime, I could see them adding the 7-passenger Edge. Oakville has for a while seemed like an underutilized plant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 How about moving the Mustang to Chicago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 How about moving the Mustang to Chicago? I don't think there's room with Explorer and Aviator there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 I don't think there's room with Explorer and Aviator there. Well if you ask that one idiot in the employee forum theyre cutting a shift at CAP so there's that ???????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 I don't think there's room with Explorer and Aviator there. I was thinking that, but I dont think the combined production of them would be more then 250k units a year. The Mustang is about 100-125k a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 That was a combination of a recession and higher gas prices along with trucks and SUVs having terrible fuel economy relative to cars. Today that's no longer the case. My F150 with 460 lb ft of torque and 13K lb towing capacity gets 22 mpg in daily driving around town. Most SUVs and CUVs are in the 20-30 mpg range now. A 2018 Expedition with the 3.5LEB gets a combined 20 mpg. A 2006 Expedition with the much lower power 5.4L V8 got 14 mpg. Explorer with the 2.3LEB gets 22. Ford is hedging their fuel economy bets with hybrid utilities. If people want utilities (no reason to think that's going to change) and Ford has hybrid utilities that get 35-40 mpg then that will put them way ahead of the competition if gas prices go way up. Same with F150 and Mustang. I don't see any scenario in which people switch back to cars any time soon. People have grown up with utilities since the early 90s and now they can get all the amenities and fairly close to the same fuel economy as a similar sized car, so that's what they want. All valid points-and I knew that. Guess I'll go down to the barn, sit in the Mack and sulk. Still think it was a mistake to be so public about canceling the cars-then again Hackett needs as many "bold moves" as he can get to convince the financial community he has a plan. Then again Goldman Sachs on Monday upgraded from neutral to buy. Wow-the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Still think it was a mistake to be so public about canceling the cars-then again Hackett needs as many "bold moves" as he can get to convince the financial community he has a plan. That was still a major screw up and I'm not sure it was really part of Hackett's plan. Sounded like a last minute knee jerk reaction type of statement that wasn't planned (at least not planned very well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sort of white space Flex replacement. Unlikely perhaps, but I don't think it'd be crazy. In the meantime, I could see them adding the 7-passenger Edge. Oakville has for a while seemed like an underutilized plant. Keep in mind that OAP also does all the European and ROW exports of Edge in LHD and RHD as well as diesel versions. So there's a lot more complexity to the build process and off line assembly areas. Edited October 31, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) Well if you ask that one idiot in the employee forum theyre cutting a shift at CAP so there's that Last month (September) CAP built 29,000 Explorers alone... What's not being factored in any of the discussions on Ford's plans is a slow down in domestic sales, we are already beginning to see this happening but it's also being masked by the the seasonal slowdown Edited October 31, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Explorer plus Aviator plus PIU should easily exceed 300K per year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Explorer plus Aviator plus PIU should easily exceed 300K per year. Up to the end of September, CAP has already produced:290,965 vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 I know people that used to buy Mercurys, Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles, etc. They all drive Japanese cars now. The Big 3 threw away market share for years--decades--by watering down their middle brands, and then when sales declined to the point of no return, they justified the phase out by stating there was a lack of interest in the brand. It wasn't lack of interest--it was a lack of compelling product. Only a fraction of those Mercury customers went to Ford or Lincoln; the rest went to competitors. Ford's market share keeps decreasing every 10 years because they do nothing but constantly alienate customers and give them reasons to go to the competition. Killing sedans is only the latest in a long history of blunders. We actually put our money where our mouth is and purchased a 2017 Edge Titanium last year for my wife, and I will be ready for a new vehicle next year. We bought the Edge as a family vehicle, but even my wife doesn't really like the high center of gravity and more sluggish driving experience after coming from a Corolla. I have always driven sedans, typically sport sedans, and have no desire to buy a truck or crossover. A Mustang is too impractical at this point (I need four doors and a usable backseat). Ford is basically telling me to look elsewhere, and it is a shame. I never imagined I would have to do such a thing after all the years I have spent invested in this company from a time, interest, and financial standpoint. If I were you, I would buy a used late model Fusion for hefty discount. You get a lot of car for your money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 I don't see any scenario in which people switch back to cars any time soon. People have grown up with utilities since the early 90s and now they can get all the amenities and fairly close to the same fuel economy as a similar sized car, so that's what they want. Ford executives including Hackett understand the shift is permanent. And Ford has extensive plans to electrify SUVs and trucks, making fuel efficiency a non issue. That puts Ford in a good situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) Ford executives including Hackett understand the shift is permanent. And Ford has extensive plans to electrify SUVs and trucks, making fuel efficiency a non issue. That puts Ford in a good situation. . No matter what the "fuel" is...fuel efficiency will ALWAYS be an issue. Edited October 31, 2018 by twintornados Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 The added versatility of most utilities over cars makes fuel efficiency less of an issue. Today's Utes are so much better on fuel economy than examples from 10-15 years ago, I think that's why economy can be worse than cars but still be more than acceptable to buyers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Ford executives including Hackett understand the shift is permanent. And Ford has extensive plans to electrify SUVs and trucks, making fuel efficiency a non issue. That puts Ford in a good situation. Nothing is permanent...$5/gal gas can change mindset is a hurry.....if hackett truly believes the shift is permanent he is even more stoopeder than i initially thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Nothing is permanent...$5/gal gas can change mindset is a hurry.....if hackett truly believes the shift is permanent he is even more stoopeder than i initially thought... I guess you missed the part about hybrid utilities that will probably get at least 35 mpg. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 I guess you missed the part about hybrid utilities that will probably get at least 35 mpg. My local ford dealer has missed those as well..nutin but row after row of f150's and othr large land yachts....nobody cares about any hybrids right now....nobody.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) Even those so called land yachts give much better fuel economy these days and Id almost guarantee that Ford will defend them to the death Edited November 1, 2018 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevensecondsuv Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 I guess you missed the part about hybrid utilities that will probably get at least 35 mpg. And when there's 35mpg utilities there will also be 55mpg small cars using the same tech, only smaller. '08-'10 could easily happen all over again. Should Ford plan on it? Probably not, but I hope they at least have a backup plan in their back pocket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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