Fgts Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 You still missing the point on resources-why are you going to spend $$$ on something that possibly might not give you a return on investment? Wasn't the point on CD6 was to cut cost on R&D from the start?. So CD6 is carrying all rwd/unibody vehicles in N/A what missing resources would Ford lose if the "fat was trimmed" in the 1st place?, factory space?, maybe but again if the alienated buyers don't return anyway would Ford still hit it's "money now!!" target if X amount of buyers won't return because of the wrong product offerd?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Ford has a history of delaying new products or missing the market when something does come out. All true. We see that with Ranger and Bronco now and to a lesser degree with Expedition/Navigator and Explorer/Aviator. Ecosport was also late and not quite best in class. However what we've seen so far with Ranger, Expy, Navi and Explorer/Aviator bodes well for the new products over the next 2 years and we're seeing a departure from One Ford common vehicles and a move to NA specific stuff like Bronco and Baby Bronco. As for the analysts, they're right about as often as the weatherman and just as accountable. What they think doesn't really matter. In fact doing things that please the analysts usually result in short term gains at the expense of long term solvency. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Makes you wonder why they couldn't just start building that factory again. They could and it wouldn't surprise me if they did that at some point, but I think it's just a timing issue with all the other resources. You can't build more vehicles unless you can engineer and test them first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Wasn't the point on CD6 was to cut cost on R&D from the start?. So CD6 is carrying all rwd/unibody vehicles in N/A what missing resources would Ford lose if the "fat was trimmed" in the 1st place?, factory space?, maybe but again if the alienated buyers don't return anyway would Ford still hit it's "money now!!" target if X amount of buyers won't return because of the wrong product offerd?. For every "alienated buyer" they lose over cars they'll get at least 1 for the other new products. If they were just cutting cars without replacing them with newer, better more profitable products you'd be right. Keeping Fusion means cutting another project somewhere. There are no 2 ways around that. That is a fact of life in the corporate world. Resources (including people) are always finite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 For every "alienated buyer" they lose over cars they'll get at least 1 for the other new products. If they were just cutting cars without replacing them with newer, better more profitable products you'd be right. Keeping Fusion means cutting another project somewhere. There are no 2 ways around that. That is a fact of life in the corporate world. Resources (including people) are always finite. But is that really realistic???...time will tell but who exactly is ford stealing these customers from??... its not chebby, fiat or tesla...may be mahindra???... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 For every "alienated buyer" they lose over cars they'll get at least 1 for the other new products. You say this but there's no actual proof of that. The shrinking of the sedan market is just anecdotal evidence as of this discussion. I do agree that is certainly the ideal goal, let's see if they can actually pull it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Got "their ass whipped" by whom? By Ford's past mismanagement. That's why the company is in trouble today. It's why Jim Hackett has to ramp up his plans to get Ford "fit" again. Can't blame analysts and investors for being frustrated. It's been a year and half since Hackett has been CEO. Hackett is doing the right things, but I guess some investors and analysts had higher expectations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) I presume next year's Ford advertising won't feature quotes like "Ford...America's best selling brand" That was such a key part of Ford ads the last few years. Edited October 22, 2018 by Kev-Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 But is that really realistic???...time will tell but who exactly is ford stealing these customers from??... its not chebby, fiat or tesla...may be mahindra???... Why wouldn’t they steal sales from Tesla? Model E/Mach 1 appears to be every bit as good looking as a Model S with similar performance. If it comes with a similar price tag they won’t have to sell very many to make a good profit. Also - who in the market has truly competitive hybrid SUVs right now? Explorer and Aviator look to be best in class and unmatched in performance on paper and based on pics. Who has a full hybrid 1/2 ton truck or pony car? That’s the bread and butter - Ranger, Bronco, Baby Bronco and hybrid utilities. BEVs and AVs are future investments that should yield low volume but high profits in the short term. If gas goes back up hybrid utility sales will go through the roof. Yes it’s a gamble but a good one IMO. Keeping status quo would be extremely concerning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 For a month, it also had a huge amount of back orders that seem to be shrinking as delivery times are becoming faster and faster. I do think what Tesla has done has been incredible, but I think come early next year is the beginning of the end. Demand will have been fulfilled for the Model 3, they can't profitably build the $35,000 unit, are losing the big tax credit (Which in California now the $45,000 unit costs about $35,000 after all the rebates) on top of that they have a massive bond payment coming due. If they do a capital raise with a stock sale it could drive the stock under $218 a share which could force Musk to sell shares of his stock driving the price even lower. If Tesla falters, it will bought out by someone. If it's not an automaker, then it will be bought by Apple or Google. It's not not going to dry up and blow away. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 For every "alienated buyer" they lose over cars they'll get at least 1 for the other new products. If they were just cutting cars without replacing them with newer, better more profitable products you'd be right. Keeping Fusion means cutting another project somewhere. There are no 2 ways around that. That is a fact of life in the corporate world. Resources (including people) are always finite. Again, fine if Ford is going an SUV route but don't try to sell me or other Ford car buyers it's because a multibillion dollar company can't offer (a) sedan that's 60-70% designed and can be made with available parts and floorspace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Again, fine if Ford is going an SUV route but don't try to sell me or other Ford car buyers it's because a multibillion dollar company can't offer (a) sedan that's 60-70% designed and can be made with available parts and floorspace. Who said they can’t? We said they would rather do something else to make more money. Big difference. But they would either have to build another new plant or displace one of the new utilities or the trucklet that’s already in progress and slated for the factory space in Mexico. You think there is factory space available because you’re not taking into account the new stuff coming in the next 12-24 months. Once they convert all the factories to C2 and get the new products into production it’s POSSIBLE they could bring back Focus or do a new Fusion on C2 and share some of that factory space, but that’s the only feasible way to do it. It’s just not worth building a new factory to make pennies on the dollar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Correct. Ford is reaching out to buyers with new Utility products but that doesn't mean that all capacity will be used up and a C2 plant can also be set up for flex manufacturing like say, Valencia Spain to produce all kinds of vehicles , maybe even some vehicles that are out of reach for now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 If Tesla falters, it will bought out by someone. If it's not an automaker, then it will be bought by Apple or Google. It's not not going to dry up and blow away. I wonder if at some point they wont become a power train provider. Sort of an electric Cummins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 I wonder if at some point they wont become a power train provider. Sort of an electric Cummins. That’s what I’ve said all along - Musk is just using Tesla motors to do the R&D on battery technology and he’ll end up selling commercial power systems and BEV drivetrains. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Thats what Ive said all along - Musk is just using Tesla motors to do the R&D on battery technology and hell end up selling commercial power systems and BEV drivetrains. If that was the goal all along, Musk f****d up by making all of Tesla's patents public.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Apparently these analysts have more weight than a few guys here in rose colored glasses always thinking selling more expensive trucks will be just fine. You can be sarcastic, but why would they single out Ford if they didn't suck? Again, by whom were they getting their "ass kicked?" How were they getting their "ass kicked?" And what "business community" thinks they're in trouble? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 But is that really realistic???...time will tell but who exactly is ford stealing these customers from??... its not chebby, fiat or tesla...may be mahindra???... Seems like Ford has a core customer it knows it has and wants to keep. Given the fact that they arent investing in expanding plants or growing market share-its easier to sell higher end items to your current customers that like you and are repeat buyers. Just take a look at the lower end of the market with the Fusion and Focus-yes both products had issues, but the primary reason people were buying them was because they were cheap and moved on to another makes product after that. The way the market is currently trending-is playing to Fords strengths (at least in North America) with trucks and CUVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 But is that really realistic???...time will tell but who exactly is ford stealing these customers from??... its not chebby, fiat or tesla...may be mahindra???... Seems like Ford has a core customer it knows it has and wants to keep. Given the fact that they arent investing in expanding plants or growing market share-its easier to sell higher end items to your current customers that like you and are repeat buyers. Just take a look at the lower end of the market with the Fusion and Focus-yes both products had issues, but the primary reason people were buying them was because they were cheap and moved on to another makes product after that. The way the market is currently trending-is playing to Fords strengths (at least in North America) with trucks and CUVs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 As for Ford being in trouble-the only thing they are in trouble with is unrealistic expectations from Wall Street that are expecting profit margins from IT/dotcom businesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 And what "business community" thinks they're in trouble? People and organizations doing business with Ford all know Ford is in trouble - retail and fleet customers, employees, investors, dealerships, suppliers, news media. Ford's leadership especially Hackett knows this too. Hackett has a tough job getting Ford back on the right track. But I'm confident he can pull it off. Several signs of improvement are already present at Ford now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 If Tesla falters, it will bought out by someone. If it's not an automaker, then it will be bought by Apple or Google. It's not not going to dry up and blow away. Absolutely, when you think about it for Musk it could be perfect. Bankrupt the auto production side buy and buy the battery assembly and suppler side, gets you out of the super competitive car making side all together. They could also spin off the Auto division as the way to raise capital. Even if it fails Musk and the large institutional investor brokerages will make billions of money on it. Just like Worldcom, Sears, Enron etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Just take a look at the lower end of the market with the Fusion and Focus-yes both products had issues, but the primary reason people were buying them was because they were cheap and moved on to another makes product after that. The way the market is currently trending-is playing to Fords strengths (at least in North America) with trucks and CUVs. Well said silvrsvt sir. U.S. customers who chose Ford sedans and hatchbacks (other than ST/RS, hybrid, and Energi versions) bought the "deal", rather than the car. It became a vicious circle. Ford didn't invest in making these cars competitive with best in class models from other companies. That degraded these cars' reputation. Then Ford had to offer huge incentives to sell them. Ford ended up losing money on these cars. That made it even harder to invest in making the cars competitive. It's great news that Ford got out of this vicious circle, and is now focused on their products that have a better reputation (trucks, SUVs, Mustang). And on stuff that's important for the future (electrification, AVs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Why wouldn’t they steal sales from Tesla? Model E/Mach 1 appears to be every bit as good looking as a Model S with similar performance. If it comes with a similar price tag they won’t have to sell very many to make a good profit. Also - who in the market has truly competitive hybrid SUVs right now? Explorer and Aviator look to be best in class and unmatched in performance on paper and based on pics. Who has a full hybrid 1/2 ton truck or pony car? That’s the bread and butter - Ranger, Bronco, Baby Bronco and hybrid utilities. BEVs and AVs are future investments that should yield low volume but high profits in the short term. If gas goes back up hybrid utility sales will go through the roof. Yes it’s a gamble but a good one IMO. Keeping status quo would be extremely concerning. Maybe because of the recalls and quality issues Ford has had. They don't have a very good reputation right now. They have a lot of work to do to get customers back. I do like the new ads they have going on now though. And who really knows how well the Ranger, Bronco, baby Bronco will sell. Only time will tell. There is a lot of risk here it could go either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 People and organizations doing business with Ford all know Ford is in trouble - retail and fleet customers, employees, investors, dealerships, suppliers, news media. Ford's leadership especially Hackett knows this too. Hackett has a tough job getting Ford back on the right track. But I'm confident he can pull it off. Several signs of improvement are already present at Ford now. In trouble means they are in danger of losing money or going bankrupt or they have nothing in the works for the future. None of which are the case. Are they in a less than optimal position right now due to product planning missteps and delays and other management issues? Yes. Will it hurt them a little for the next 12-24 months? Yes. Are they cutting investments in future products for short term benefits that might hurt them down the road? Just the opposite. Are tariffs hurting? A little. Will Ford make money this year? Billions. Relax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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