Is Ford in trouble?

[akirby]

 

Maybe because of the recalls and quality issues Ford has had. They don't have a very good reputation right now. They have a lot of work to do to get customers back. I do like the new ads they have going on now though. And who really knows how well the Ranger, Bronco, baby Bronco will sell. Only time will tell. There is a lot of risk here it could go either way.

 

Ford's reputation is pretty much the same as it's always been. Everyone else is having recalls and issues as well - it's not like Ford is alone there.

 

Lots of recalls and issues on F150s but sales and profits are at an all time high. Jeep is terrible by comparison and they're selling like gangbusters.

 

Go look at the absolute numbers. Outside of Mitsubishi and Fiat the rest are really pretty close with the worst being as good or better as the best from a couple of decades ago. Cars don't fall apart after 100K miles any more. Honestly it's not a big issue for buyers especially for folks who lease and stay within the factory warranty period.

 

The bigger problem is the cost to the business. It's a direct drain on profits and that's why they need to get fixed.

[Gurgeh]

"Outside of Mitsubishi and Fiat the rest are really pretty close..."

 

Akirby, don't forget the absolute worst in terms of reliability of today's automakers: Jaguar Land Rover! Maybe they are such an outlier that they didn't show up on your chart.

 

...and I'm saying this as someone who nearly bought a Velar. But then two things happened. I test drove the Nautilus and found it a nice bump up in its power band and handling from the MKX (thanks mostly to the new 8-speed), and became increasingly concerned reading various Land Rover postings about the incredibly glitchy infotainment system (that like the Volvo and Tesla runs pretty much everything in the car) and the fact that so many refuse to keep owning the vehicles past warranty due to reliability concerns.

 

The Ford/Lincoln crossover I'll be buying has an excellent reliability record, starting with the 2.7 (nearly) bullet-proof engine to the rest of the just-refreshed vehicle that is now in the middle of its life-cycle with the initial bugs (that all cars have in their first year) all pretty much squashed out of it.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Gurgeh

[akirby]

"Outside of Mitsubishi and Fiat the rest are really pretty close..."

 

Akirby, don't forget the absolute worst in terms of reliability of today's automakers: Jaguar Land Rover! Maybe they are such an outlier that they didn't show up on your chart.

 

...and I'm saying this as someone who nearly bought a Velar. But then two things happened. I test drove the Nautilus and found it a nice bump up in its power band and handling from the MKX (thanks mostly to the new 8-speed), and became increasingly concerned reading various Land Rover postings about the incredibly glitchy infotainment system (that like the Volvo and Tesla runs pretty much everything in the car) and the fact that so many refuse to keep owning the vehicles past warranty due to reliability concerns.

 

The Ford/Lincoln crossover I'll be buying has an excellent reliability record, starting with the 2.7 (nearly) bullet-proof engine to the rest of the just-refreshed vehicle that is now in the middle of its life-cycle with the initial bugs (that all cars have in their first year) all pretty much squashed out of it.

 

I was just going by memory and forgot Jag/LR were also near the bottom. I don't think they were as bad as Mits and Fiat though.

[akirby]

Found it. Jag wasn't too bad but LR was terrible.

 

WTF happened to Cadillac?

 

[rmc523]

Why wouldn’t they steal sales from Tesla? Model E/Mach 1 appears to be every bit as good looking as a Model S with similar performance. If it comes with a similar price tag they won’t have to sell very many to make a good profit.

 

Also - who in the market has truly competitive hybrid SUVs right now? Explorer and Aviator look to be best in class and unmatched in performance on paper and based on pics. Who has a full hybrid 1/2 ton truck or pony car?

 

That’s the bread and butter - Ranger, Bronco, Baby Bronco and hybrid utilities. BEVs and AVs are future investments that should yield low volume but high profits in the short term. If gas goes back up hybrid utility sales will go through the roof.

 

Yes it’s a gamble but a good one IMO. Keeping status quo would be extremely concerning.

 

I see your point, but technically Ford doesn't yet either.

 

 

Well said silvrsvt sir. U.S. customers who chose Ford sedans and hatchbacks (other than ST/RS, hybrid, and Energi versions) bought the "deal", rather than the car. It became a vicious circle. Ford didn't invest in making these cars competitive with best in class models from other companies. That degraded these cars' reputation. Then Ford had to offer huge incentives to sell them. Ford ended up losing money on these cars. That made it even harder to invest in making the cars competitive.

 

It's great news that Ford got out of this vicious circle, and is now focused on their products that have a better reputation (trucks, SUVs, Mustang). And on stuff that's important for the future (electrification, AVs).

 

They WERE best in class when they debuted. They just let them coast without meaningful updates, though.

Edited October 23, 2018 by rmc523

[twintornados]

They WERE best in class when they debuted. They just let them coast without meaningful updates like always though.

.

fixed

[akirby]

 

I see your point, but technically Ford doesn't yet either.

 

 

They WERE best in class when they debuted. They just let them coast without meaningful updates, though.

 

 

And even the best in class Accord has suffered lower demand. So even if Ford had kept the Fusion best in class and fresh and new sales still would have tanked.

[akirby]

 

I see your point, but technically Ford doesn't yet either.

 

True. I should have said "developing". We don't have any indication that other mfrs are developing as many hybrid utilities as Ford or what they're doing with F150 and Mustang. Maybe they're doing it in secret - guess we'll have to just wait and see.

[Harley Lover]

 

True. I should have said "developing". We don't have any indication that other mfrs are developing as many hybrid utilities as Ford or what they're doing with F150 and Mustang. Maybe they're doing it in secret - guess we'll have to just wait and see.

 

Toyota has a hybrid Rav4 and a hybrid Highlander, Lexus has its version of those vehicles too.

[akirby]

 

Toyota has a hybrid Rav4 and a hybrid Highlander, Lexus has its version of those vehicles too.

 

That's why I said "as many". Ford is planning hybrids for all their vehicles other than a few commercial trucks and vans. Other mfrs are doing one or two.

[J-150]

Yes, Ford is in trouble and they been in trouble since at least the Trotman era. For 3 decades they've been one recession away from bankruptcy.

 

But they always seem to pull out a winner that saves them.

[Fgts]

Who said they cant? We said they would rather do something else to make more money. Big difference.

 

But they would either have to build another new plant or displace one of the new utilities or the trucklet thats already in progress and slated for the factory space in Mexico. You think there is factory space available because youre not taking into account the new stuff coming in the next 12-24 months.

 

Once they convert all the factories to C2 and get the new products into production its POSSIBLE they could bring back Focus or do a new Fusion on C2 and share some of that factory space, but thats the only feasible way to do it. Its just not worth building a new factory to make pennies on the dollar.

Why is it a common thought here is anyone

buys a Ford car here it's because they're "cheap"?. Are Lincoln sedan buyers cheap?, the point I was making is they have one Ford sedan on CD6 with a starting price of the mid $20ks or so which automatically shut-out the "bottom-dwellers" Focus/Fusion buyers and have communally of drivetriains with the high-profit trucks/SUV.

 

The other thought here is the truck/SUV/EVCUV will drive so good buyers won't think about a sedan, I'm sorry a 5000lb buffalo can't take turns nor get into tight spots as a smaller sedan can and buyers will go elsewhere like Tesla.

[akirby]

You think $20K focus buyers are going to buy a $40K - $50K Tesla?

 

Of course they could make a CD6 Ford sedan to replace Fusion. But at $25K it’s not going to be very profitable. If they can do it with otherwise unused factory capacity then it might be worth it. But I suspect Ford would rather put those resources towards other vehicles that have more profit potential.

 

Lincolns have much higher ATPs and the ability to pull much higher profit margins.

 

As for who is saying that Ford sedans are cheap? The buyers who stopped buying Titaniums and are only buying SE models. And they’re only buying them with $4K on the hood. If Ford was still selling a lot of Titaniums it would be a different story. Especially Focus. It was a good try and I thought folks would buy more Titaniums. But there are so many midsized sedans out there they’ve become ubiquitous and a commodity that only sells in volume when they’re cheap.

[akirby]

The other thought here is the truck/SUV/EVCUV will drive so good buyers won't think about a sedan

I think the problem is your frame of reference for utilities is a 95 Explorer. There is very little difference between a Focus hatchback and an Escape or a Fusion and an Edge unless you’re driving it at the limit which almost nobody does.

 

Maybe you should go drive a modern unibody utility - you might be surprised.

[Fgts]

I think the problem is your frame of reference for utilities is a 95 Explorer. There is very little difference between a Focus hatchback and an Escape or a Fusion and an Edge unless youre driving it at the limit which almost nobody does.

 

I guess not in your city, not where im at otherwise there's no need for BMWs, funny how many SUVs nearly fliped trying to out-corner me on off ramps...

Maybe you should go drive a modern unibody utility - you might be surprised.

Surprised the buffalo will still won't handle as well as a sedan would?.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Fgts

[Fgts]

You think $20K focus buyers are going to buy a $40K - $50K Tesla?

 

No, there'll buy Civics now, the Tesla point is there's many people that don't wanna truck and still pay money for one.

 

Of course they could make a CD6 Ford sedan to replace Fusion. But at $25K its not going to be very profitable. If they can do it with otherwise unused factory capacity then it might be worth it. But I suspect Ford would rather put those resources towards other vehicles that have more profit potential.

 

How's a car starting at $25k not be profitable on a shared platform?, if that's the case they need to rethink the Escape also.

Lincolns have much higher ATPs and the ability to pull much higher profit margins.

 

But there're primarily Ford sedans underneath.

 

As for who is saying that Ford sedans are cheap? The buyers who stopped buying Titaniums and are only buying SE models. And theyre only buying them with $4K on the hood. If Ford was still selling a lot of Titaniums it would be a different story. Especially Focus. It was a good try and I thought folks would buy more Titaniums. But there are so many midsized sedans out there theyve become ubiquitous and a commodity that only sells in volume when theyre cheap.

Since Ford don't have to push SEs anymore push out "Platinum" and "Titanium" as the lower-priced sedan.

[fuzzymoomoo]

As for who is saying that Ford sedans are cheap? The buyers who stopped buying Titaniums and are only buying SE models. And theyre only buying them with $4K on the hood. If Ford was still selling a lot of Titaniums it would be a different story. Especially Focus. It was a good try and I thought folks would buy more Titaniums. But there are so many midsized sedans out there theyve become ubiquitous and a commodity that only sells in volume when theyre cheap.

Part of the problem with the Focus was (the obvious transmission problems aside) the nonsensical incentives on them vs. a Fusion. You could get a Fusion SE similarly equipped as a Focus Titanium for the same monthly payment for a very long time. In that situation which would you choose? I complained about this several years ago. It didn't make sense at the time and it makes even less sense now.

 

It turned into a self fulfilling prophecy, and the same thing is happening now trying to steer people from a Fusion to an Escape. Granted the sedan market is shrinking anyway but it's still history repeating itself.

 

You would think they would try to steer some of those buyers to a similarly sized Edge but they aren't. A friend of mine just got one last week and there are NO deals to be had on those, even with Z-plan. They're paying more for theirs per month than I am for my Fusion and my Fusion is better equipped. AND the 19s are out so the fire sale should be on by now.

[akirby]

And how many people drive like that? 1%?

[akirby]

Part of the problem with the Focus was (the obvious transmission problems aside) the nonsensical incentives on them vs. a Fusion. You could get a Fusion SE similarly equipped as a Focus Titanium for the same monthly payment for a very long time. In that situation which would you choose? I complained about this several years ago. It didn't make sense at the time and it makes even less sense now.

It turned into a self fulfilling prophecy, and the same thing is happening now trying to steer people from a Fusion to an Escape. Granted the sedan market is shrinking anyway but it's still history repeating itself.

You would think they would try to steer some of those buyers to a similarly sized Edge but they aren't. A friend of mine just got one last week and there are NO deals to be had on those, even with Z-plan. They're paying more for theirs per month than I am for my Fusion and my Fusion is better equipped. AND the 19s are out so the fire sale should be on by now.

But they still bought the Edge. Isn’t that proof that people want utilities and are willing to pay more for them?

 

As for a Focus Titanium being the same price as a Fusion SE - that’s always going to be the case, isn’t it? I don’t understand what you think Ford should have done differently?j

[akirby]

No, there'll buy Civics now, the Tesla point is there's many people that don't wanna truck and still pay money for one.

How's a car starting at $25k not be profitable on a shared platform?, if that's the case they need to rethink the Escape also.

 

But there're primarily Ford sedans underneath.

 

Since Ford don't have to push SEs anymore push out "Platinum" and "Titanium" as the lower-priced sedan.

You don’t really understand how profit works, do you?

 

A $25K car can be very profitable if it can be sold for $25K. But when the market is so crowded that the competition is putting $4K incentives on the hood and you have to match it to sell anything, there goes your profit.

 

If buyers only want cheap SEs and you only sell Titaniums now your volume has dropped so much you can’t make any money even with higher ATPs.

 

It’s like you think every vehicle sold is profitable regardless of price or volume. Ridiculous.

[fuzzymoomoo]

But they still bought the Edge. Isnt that proof that people want utilities and are willing to pay more for them?

 

As for a Focus Titanium being the same price as a Fusion SE - thats always going to be the case, isnt it? I dont understand what you think Ford should have done differently?j

They borrowed our Fusion for a few days and didn't like it, and an Escape is too small for 2 car seats (same reason I got rid of my Focus).

 

I went back and listened to some of the ads (podcasts are great). The deals were actually for Focus SE and Fusion SE, which makes even less sense.

[akirby]

They borrowed our Fusion for a few days and didn't like it, and an Escape is too small for 2 car seats (same reason I got rid of my Focus).

I went back and listened to some of the ads (podcasts are great). The deals were actually for Focus SE and Fusion SE, which makes even less sense.

You’re literally proving Ford’s point that people want utilities and are willing to pay more for them.

 

It makes perfect sense the deals are on SEs because they’re trying to compete with the lower priced vehicles from the other mfrs. If they’re selling Camrys for $199 you can’t compete with a $349 Titanium Fusion.

[Trader 10]

I can tell you as the owner of a Fusion and an Edge that there is indeed a big difference in the way they drive, The Fusion is much more nimble and enjoyable to drive -as it should be given its lower center of gravity, much less weight, and considerably better aerodynamics. Not to mention the Fusion’s better fuel economy.

[akirby]

I can tell you as the owner of a Fusion and an Edge that there is indeed a big difference in the way they drive, The Fusion is much more nimble and enjoyable to drive -as it should be given its lower center of gravity, much less weight, and considerably better aerodynamics. Not to mention the Fusion’s better fuel economy.

I had a 2.0L Fusion Titanium and a 2016 MKX 3.7L. I got 21 mpg in both.

 

I’m not saying cars don’t handle better. I’m saying that 99% of drivers don’t care and would buy an Edge over a Fusion anyway.

[fuzzymoomoo]

Youre literally proving Fords point that people want utilities and are willing to pay more for them.

 

It makes perfect sense the deals are on SEs because theyre trying to compete with the lower priced vehicles from the other mfrs. If theyre selling Camrys for $199 you cant compete with a $349 Titanium Fusion.

It doesn't make sense in 2014 and the SUV craze hasn't demolished the sedan market yet. They complained nobody was buying them when you could get something similarly (if not better) equipped AND with more room for the same monthly payment.

 

What if I told you he wanted a truck but she has it in her head that the back seat of a full size (SuperCrew) pickup is tiny.

Edited October 25, 2018 by fuzzymoomoo