ANTAUS Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 https://www.autoblog.com/2018/10/17/vw-ford-partnership-analysts/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Did we not learn anything from DaimlerChrysler? A JV in Europe for light commercial vehicles and/or a VW buyout Ford's European and South American operations in a 'worst-case-scenario' both have merit, but beyond that? If Ford and VW get any closer than that this will not turn out well. For Ford. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 The ANALysts love it. Hackett (and his non earned oversize ego) probably love it. If Ford goes as far as some analysts are forecasting, Hackett will get his ass kicked by German execs who can run circles around his bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Think Alliance that allows both to use each other's manufacturing facilities for greater efficiency that would be a master stroke for both in Europe and Asia as well as South America. There will be no mergers or takeovers, the Ford family will not allow that to happen this will not be anything like Daimler Chrysler 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) Edited October 18, 2018 by twintornados Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Too soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Too soon! . I meant with the picture that Sergio is smiling down from Automotive heaven... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 The only place they overlap is when it comes to C and CD based products. Im not too sure how much Ford would want to give up control of the Escape/Model E/baby Bronco/Edge etc that are currently on Ford platforms. Would they move over to the MBQ or whatever VW modular platform in 5-10 years? Would Ford just be left with Van/truck/CD6 platforms that would be pure Ford products? There is a lot places they dont overlap-but down the road a bit gives me some pause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Just because DaimlerChysler failed, doens't mean VW-Ford will fail. A lot of people ascribe the failure of DaimlerChrysler to "cultural" differences but I think the failure was baked in with Daimler's intentions. The Germans never was serious about integrating the company. There was no plan to share platforms or powertrain, and no real effort at combining the workforce or even something simple like vendor contracts. Mercedes managements were dismissive of Chrysler's brands (which includes Jeep that everyone even back then said was a top asset). They were mostly lusting after the $1billion cash Chrysler had on hand at the time. A VW-Ford combination (by the way... won't happen because Ford family would have to agree to sell... and they won't) will likely be very different. VW will move very quickly to combine the platform engineering and powertrain to realize savings. Their track record of acquisition (Audi, Skoda, SEAT, Porsche, Bentley etc) shows they know how to integrate to acquired business. VW will find a niche for Ford in Europe, Asia, and South America and leverage the resources of the entire group to execute those plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) The only place they overlap is when it comes to C and CD based products. Im not too sure how much Ford would want to give up control of the Escape/Model E/baby Bronco/Edge etc that are currently on Ford platforms. Would they move over to the MBQ or whatever VW modular platform in 5-10 years? Would Ford just be left with Van/truck/CD6 platforms that would be pure Ford products? There is a lot places they dont overlap-but down the road a bit gives me some pause. At the moment, the alliance is centered on commercial vehicles but the more you look at it, there are more savings to be had in Europe and rest of the world. by moving vehicles to shared architecture..... Hackett would be looking for structural changes Ford can implement in under five years, shared architecture would allow that to happen at a much quicker pace than most expect. The big questions are how much change and how quickly....and if Hackett is looking to rip billions out of vehicle development budgets, an alliance with VW would be the way to go. We just don't know how long these high level discussions have been going on. Edited October 18, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 I'm not saying it will happen, but don't be so sure that the Ford family won't sell. Every generation of the family gets bigger, but the number of career Ford employees from each hasn't(two each from the 3rd, 4th, and 5th). I get the impression that some don't care what's going on with the company, so long as they're getting their quarterly dividends. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 I lived through AutoLatina. This scares the hell out of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 I lived through AutoLatina. This scares the hell out of me. . The AutoLatina union should be used as a guide moving forward so the same mistakes are not made twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 I think a merger is going to be the ultimate outcome. In hindsight. Ford's descision on sedans now makes more sense where they cut production in a place where VW is strong and concentrates its resources where VW is weak and envies (F-150 size and Ranger sised pickups, most CUV and SUV). As far as the Ford family going along with it... I think they will. Alam Mullaly organized an almost perfect machine ready for growth and expansion, but within a short time after his departure, the whole thing unraveled. This would disillusion and demoralize anyone. They may see this as the only way to perserve the family legacy. They may have to sell to a management who displays dicipline and never gives up. Can you imagine if Fords management ran VW and their descision to stay in the American market with a 5% market share after being a powerhouse in the Beetle era? Or if they said 20 years ago when they only sold 3 million cars a year they'd be the worlds biggest automaker while everyone else laughs their asses off? As much as I have disgust with VW over the emissions scandal, I admire their tenacity and how they never give up. If Ford made the promise today that they'd be the worlds biggest automaker in 20 years everyone would laugh and in this case they would be justified. With this management, they will bail out of the world and be reduced to just selling the F150 in the American market only with the Mustang being a trim level of pickup with a stupid spoiler. Ford is like a kid who runs away screaming when a bully demands its lunch money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 They don’t need to merge to work together in a Joint Venture - like Ford did with Mazda but on a larger scale. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 They dont need to merge to work together in a Joint Venture - like Ford did with Mazda but on a larger scale. But ford had a majority ownership in Mazda.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 But ford had a majority ownership in Mazda.... It wasn't a majority, wasn't it 33 (or maybe 34)% stake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 It wasn't a majority, wasn't it 33 (or maybe 34)% stake? Yes, 34%. Ford had a controlling interest in Mazda, not a majority interest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 VW is a lot bigger than Ford, VW's 'corporate ego' is just as inflated as Daimler's (Peich family), VW is terribly inefficient (look at their number of employees vs. number of vehicles produced), and VW is really owned by the Government of Lower Saxony and German Labor Unions (socialism). Sure, joint ventures make a lot of sense, but I don't think VW will stop there. Any 'merger' will result in VW running the show. Ford won't even get access to VW's medium/heavy truck unit, that's being spun off as we speak. New entity will be named 'Traton'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 (edited) Ford would have purchased Mazda outright (or more than 34% for sure) had it not been the debt on Mazda's balance sheet. But because of the debt, there was really no point beyond having effective control under Japanese law. But during the later part of Ford's ownership of Mazda, it was basically a subsidiary of Ford with Ford appointing all the senior management. Everyone's favorite whipping boy Mark Fields was the CEO of Mazda from 1999 to 2005 where he was credited with saving the MX-5 and revamping Mazda's line up with fresh models, and developing the MZR family of engine that was rebadged as Ford Duratec HE family. Edited October 19, 2018 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 (edited) VW does not want to buy Ford, it was blown away with what Ford is doing in the commercial range and sharing production of Ford's next generation commercials will save VW billons in development. IMO, Hackett has tipped Ford's hand by announcing that estimated $11 billion restructuring cost for Ford in the rest of the world - those changes should include switching to VW sourced cars and Utilities. If this remains an alliance, it will mean Ford and VW will be in bed with each other for at least a decade, both companies really want this - VW reeling from dieselgate costs and Ford needing to find global profit. In the end VW can afford to do this and save billions in development while earning billions in sales to Ford. Ford is different, Hackett needs this alliance to work if Ford is to ever realize those highly optimistic financial figures he's spruked in the past.....there is simply no other way to turn global around and make those figures. VW doesn't have to buy Ford Europe when Hackett is prepared to turn Ford's global showroom into virtually a badge engineered division of VW group....that to me is an even scarier though than FoE being bought by VW. Edited October 19, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 I am 100% against badge engineered anything. GM did that all through the 80s and especially 90s into the 2000s and look where that got them. And it took out several iconic brands in the process. No thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 I am 100% against badge engineered anything. GM did that all through the 80s and especially 90s into the 2000s and look where that got them. And it took out several iconic brands in the process. No thanks. I think his comments where being dismissive of Ford using VW platforms-I don't think we'll get a Golf with just a Blue oval on the nose. We'll get a different tophat at least. Going forward ICE is going to be come less and less important and BEVs won't be that much different engineering wise. I still think Ford isn't going to use any VW platforms for at least another 5-10 years out-they have a new platform in the CD6 coming out next year and the C platform is getting a major refresh with the new Focus and Escape. That would be the first one IMO that would be shared from VW, outside of maybe A/B class products. I don't think Ford would be willing to give up on its larger platforms it makes money on and arguably does better then VW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 (edited) So much hysteria, you simply can't predict the outcome or scope of this cooperation before it's even announced. There is just too much speculation here and kvetching because of it. Ford has massive problems, we can't fault them for their ambitions to change things dramatically through innovation, both in product and business. If there is one thing I want to see from Ford right now, it's profound change. They've done it before, they are doing it again. VW partnership has enormous potential and I trust Ford to do what's right or limit the scope to what was already agreed upon. Edited October 19, 2018 by Assimilator 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 (edited) I think his comments where being dismissive of Ford using VW platforms-I don't think we'll get a Golf with just a Blue oval on the nose. We'll get a different tophat at least. Going forward ICE is going to be come less and less important and BEVs won't be that much different engineering wise. I still think Ford isn't going to use any VW platforms for at least another 5-10 years out-they have a new platform in the CD6 coming out next year and the C platform is getting a major refresh with the new Focus and Escape. That would be the first one IMO that would be shared from VW, outside of maybe A/B class products. I don't think Ford would be willing to give up on its larger platforms it makes money on and arguably does better then VW. Go back a step and consider what is planned in Europe & ROW as divorced from what's happening in North America. The US plans will continue on all existing planned platforms - nothing changes but Europe and ROW which are the seed beds for smaller cars and Utilities could be moving much sooner than we think. In Hackett's eyes, he must stem the bleeding in markets outside North America ASAP. So changes there could be more rapid so that vehicles are in place when North America needs to switch from C2 in the next five years. There is an $11 Billion correction coming to Ford's global operations inside the next five years and Ford won't be waiting more than five years to switch I give them 4-5 years and switch is done. Maybe not badge engineered as such but using VW platforms in their entirety will mean either new top hat or at worse a good re-skin of existing VW cars and utilities - I think the latter is more likely as far less cost and change for VW to manage...it also fits give Hackett's agenda of cutting costs.. By the same token, I'd expect all existing plans for North American product to continue as those C2 utilities Edited October 19, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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