akirby Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 And you won't get super fast 0-60 on electric only - there's absolutely no reason to do that when you have a 400 HP ICE sitting there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcartwright99 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 And you won't get super fast 0-60 on electric only - there's absolutely no reason to do that when you have a 400 HP ICE sitting there. The Lincoln PHEV will be the fastest SUV/CUV that Ford has ever built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) You're going to get monster torque out of Ford's in-transmission PHEV system. Not quite P100D level torque but we're still talking Tesla level regardless. I really don't know how fast it's going to be because it's still big and heavy, but I think Lincoln will continue to deliver on surprising people with performance. I'm excited, so much great stuff coming on paper, just trying to restrain my excitement until the results add up on the road. Edited October 16, 2018 by Assimilator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 I know this will sound sexist but it’s simply a fact - women are less spatially aware than men, generally speaking. It drives me crazy in grocery stores when they stop in the middle of the aisle completely oblivious to the other people trying to get around them. I can’t count the number of times I’ve had to tell my wife to move out of the way. I am constantly aware of not blocking the aisle or other people, probably because it ticks me off so much when others do it. Driving is the same way. No regard for people wanting to get out of a driveway or cross street. Leaving huge gaps in front causing people behind to not be able to get into a turn lane. It’s maddening sometimes (and sometimes the same applies to guys). In the grocery store I just ram the cart out of the way. I get dirty looks but I don't care. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 In the grocery store I just ram the cart out of the way. I get dirty looks but I don't care. And you didn’t think we had anything in common..... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msm859 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) Because there is no reason whatsoever to detune it. A 3.0LEB PHEV is a performance vehicle not a gas sipper. If they wanted a gas sipper they'd be using a 2.0LEB or 2.3LEB. Yes, there is a reason(s) to detune it. To be more of a "gas sipper" AND because you do not need as much if you have 200+ electric hp. And many people want to be able to drive around locally without using gas. With a 30 mile range and 200 hp I can realistically do that. At 118 hp you won't be able to do that. It "Needs" way more then 118 electric hp. Edited October 17, 2018 by msm859 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Yes, there is a reason(s) to detune it. To be more of a "gas sipper" AND because you do not need as much if you have 200+ electric hp. And many people want to be able to drive around locally without using gas. With a 30 mile range and 200 hp I can realistically do that. At 118 hp you won't be able to do that. It "Needs" way more then 118 electric hp. So all those people driving around in Fusion Energis on 118 hp electric motors with a 22 mile range are faking it? You don’t put a 3.0LEB in there and detune it. You use the 2.7LEB or the 2.3LEB if that’s your goal. They are going for max performance here. The motor might be stronger than 118 hp (which is misleading because you get 100% torque instantly) but there is no NEED for 200 hp given a 400 HP ICE. There is only so much power you can put to the ground even with AWD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msm859 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 So all those people driving around in Fusion Energis on 118 hp electric motors with a 22 mile range are faking it? You don’t put a 3.0LEB in there and detune it. You use the 2.7LEB or the 2.3LEB if that’s your goal. They are going for max performance here. The motor might be stronger than 118 hp (which is misleading because you get 100% torque instantly) but there is no NEED for 200 hp given a 400 HP ICE. There is only so much power you can put to the ground even with AWD. No, they are not faking it. They are not driving in electric only. One review from 2013 said in electric only it took 14.6 seconds to go 0-60. You are right that those other motors might work "more economically" but what if the goal is to have your cake and eat it too? Doesn't the 3.0 eb already have a 350 hp version? I would rather have the 350 hp eb and 200 hp electric instead of the 400 hp eb and 150 hp electric. The GOAL of having a PHEV is to maximize efficiency with the premise that most people drive less then 30 miles per day. You can only really achieve that goal if you have realistic electric only power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 No, they are not faking it. They are not driving in electric only. They most certainly are driving in electric only mode for the first 22 miles (unless they choose to override that). It's not blazingly fast but it has instant torque which helps a lot. The 350 HP version was for FWD MKZ only. AWD versions are all 400 hp. You're completely missing the point with this vehicle. It's not a BEV. It's not an economy car or made to be a fuel sipper. It's made for high performance with the option to run on battery power for probably 30 miles. If you want acceleration you don't use just the electric motor - you use both the electric motor AND the 400 hp beast under the hood together. Remember this motor is integrated into the 10 speed tranny so I'd be surprised if it's much bigger than the one in the Fusion Energi. Because it doesn't have to be any bigger to accomplish the goal. Even a 200 hp electric motor would be significantly slower than the ICE plus the electric motor. It doesn't make sense other than some kind of bragging rights against true BEVs which is silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 No, they are not faking it. They are not driving in electric only. One review from 2013 said in electric only it took 14.6 seconds to go 0-60. You are right that those other motors might work "more economically" but what if the goal is to have your cake and eat it too? Doesn't the 3.0 eb already have a 350 hp version? I would rather have the 350 hp eb and 200 hp electric instead of the 400 hp eb and 150 hp electric. The GOAL of having a PHEV is to maximize efficiency with the premise that most people drive less then 30 miles per day. You can only really achieve that goal if you have realistic electric only power. Keep in mind that in normal, every-day driving, 14.6 second 0-60 is completely adequate, especially if you spend much of your time in town. But, as akirby pointed out, you are completely missing the point of the Aviator. The Explorer will likely be a bit different, and won't have the HP the Aviator does, except maybe in an ST or RS version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msm859 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Keep in mind that in normal, every-day driving, 14.6 second 0-60 is completely adequate, especially if you spend much of your time in town. But, as akirby pointed out, you are completely missing the point of the Aviator. The Explorer will likely be a bit different, and won't have the HP the Aviator does, except maybe in an ST or RS version. Well I guess that is the million dollar question. What is the point of the Aviator? I suggest if it is to simply have a high performance suv that will do little for Ford. The world is moving to BEV's. PHEV are just the stepping stone. Ford needs to go big and jump to the head of the line not simply join the game. The base Tesla model X has 2 electric motors - 259 hp each. The performance model replaces one of those with a 503 hp engine. Ford needs to be able to talk about the electric only performance of the Aviator to be serious. Having "adequate" acceleration electric only will not cut it - unless Ford only wants to be mediocre. Lincoln should be their showcase for the future, not the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) Well I guess that is the million dollar question. What is the point of the Aviator? I suggest if it is to simply have a high performance suv that will do little for Ford. The world is moving to BEV's. PHEV are just the stepping stone. Ford needs to go big and jump to the head of the line not simply join the game. The base Tesla model X has 2 electric motors - 259 hp each. The performance model replaces one of those with a 503 hp engine. Ford needs to be able to talk about the electric only performance of the Aviator to be serious. Having "adequate" acceleration electric only will not cut it - unless Ford only wants to be mediocre. Lincoln should be their showcase for the future, not the past. So your equating PHEV with a BEV? Wut? As far as I know, there is going to be no other performance hybrid Luxury CUV on the market like the Aviator. The Explorer Sport will be pointed at straight ICE offerings in the performance market at a 20k or so lower price point. Both products exist to generate $$$ for Ford Edited October 17, 2018 by silvrsvt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) Well I guess that is the million dollar question. What is the point of the Aviator? I suggest if it is to simply have a high performance suv that will do little for Ford. The world is moving to BEV's. PHEV are just the stepping stone. Ford needs to go big and jump to the head of the line not simply join the game. The base Tesla model X has 2 electric motors - 259 hp each. The performance model replaces one of those with a 503 hp engine. Ford needs to be able to talk about the electric only performance of the Aviator to be serious. Having "adequate" acceleration electric only will not cut it - unless Ford only wants to be mediocre. Lincoln should be their showcase for the future, not the past. PHEV is one BIG stepping stone. It's not like the PHEV is only going to be valid for 5 years, then everything will be BEV. It's going to be a LOOOONG process for the world to move to BEV. With that said, the point of the Aviator is to give you quiet luxury, inspiring performance, and unlimited range (by filling up with gas), with better fuel economy if you don't want to drive it hard. And never fear, the Aviator will have more than 'adequate' acceleration. Why compare the electric part of the PHEV with the electric part of the Tesla. You forget the Aviator has 400+ HP of ICE to back it up. I'm sure the Aviator will perform well overall against the X. It may not beat it in pure acceleration, but in so many other ways. Edited October 17, 2018 by fordmantpw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Aviator is not a BEV. That’s the Model E which by all accounts will have exactly what you’re looking for - best in class performance and a 300 mile electric range. BEVs are still going to be minor players for several years, especially when PHEVs are going to be more widely available as utilities. For driving around town a PHEV gives you all the benefits of a BEV but you have none of the range anxiety and charging issues for longer trips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msm859 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 So your equating PHEV with a BEV? Wut? As far as I know, there is going to be no other performance hybrid Luxury CUV on the market like the Aviator. The Explorer Sport will be pointed at straight ICE offerings in the performance market at a 20k or so lower price point. Both products exist to generate $$$ for Ford Volvo XC90 T8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msm859 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 PHEV is one BIG stepping stone. It's not like the PHEV is only going to be valid for 5 years, then everything will be BEV. It's going to be a LOOOONG process for the world to move to BEV. With that said, the point of the Aviator is to give you quiet luxury, inspiring performance, and unlimited range (by filling up with gas), with better fuel economy if you don't want to drive it hard. And never fear, the Aviator will have more than 'adequate' acceleration. Why compare the electric part of the PHEV with the electric part of the Tesla. You forget the Aviator has 400+ HP of ICE to back it up. I'm sure the Aviator will perform well overall against the X. It may not beat it in pure acceleration, but in so many other ways. Not sure what you mean by LOOOOONG? I'd guess within 10 years most cars will be BEV's. Performance cars use to have large v-8's because that is what you needed to get the power you needed for the performance you wanted. Now we have 3.0 liter v-6's putting out tremendous power. I have a Explorer Platinum love the eb 3.5 The next generation though is going to be even still smaller ICE coupled with electric motors. Lincoln should leapfrog the competition and come out with something that shows forward thinking. What would you rather have today - an Aviator with a 400 hp ICE and 118 hp electric motor OR a 350 hp ICE with a 259 hp electric motor? The latter would be a lot faster and get a lot better mpg.(assuming decent range - 30 miles). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Volvo XC90 T8 That comes with a 2.0L turbo and a 87 hp electric motor and a combined 400 hp. Aviator is 3.0L Turbo with 400 hp by itself plus the electric motor - probably over 500 hp. I thought you said 118 hp wasn't enough for a plug in hybrid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Most cars are not going to be BEVs in 10 years. At most they'll be plug in hybrids. You're not going to fix the range/recharge issues that quickly. It will slowly get better but not that fast. And I'd say that the Aviator IS a leapfrog. You're just stuck on the idea of a stupid fast electric only mode which is completely unnecessary in a PHEV with a 400 hp ICE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) The big problem facing Ford is just the charging network, specifically the lack of a rapid charging infrastructure or standard. It's going to take years to build that out. Right now if you want an electric vehicle, there is absolutely no reason to buy anything except Tesla because of the SuperCharging network. You're at a huge disadvantage without it. That can't be overstated enough. That's why I would never buy a Ford BEV over a Tesla at this stage. Ford knows this, they still don't have the technology they want to commit to fully, which includes solid state batteries and even faster chargers. It's possible the right technology will allow you to fully recharge a car within minutes instead of within an hour. And then there is wireless charging, which is personally the infrastructure I would prefer to build out. Edited October 17, 2018 by Assimilator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Wireless charging is also going to be the most expensive route and I don't think anyone is willing to go that route on a mass scale. Not for a while at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 The big problem facing Ford is just the charging network, specifically the lack of a rapid charging infrastructure or standard. It's going to take years to build that out. Right now if you want an electric vehicle, there is absolutely no reason to buy anything except Tesla because of the SuperCharging network. You're at a huge disadvantage without it. That can't be overstated enough. That's why I would never buy a Ford BEV over a Tesla at this stage. Ford knows this, they still don't have the technology they want to commit to fully, which includes solid state batteries and even faster chargers. It's possible the right technology will allow you to fully recharge a car within minutes instead of within an hour. And then there is wireless charging, which is personally the infrastructure I would prefer to build out. . https://www.amazon.com/TeslaTap-Tesla-to-J-1772-Adapter/dp/B0754YX3NH#customerReviews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Not sure what you mean by LOOOOONG? I'd guess within 10 years most cars will be BEV's. 20 years, minimum, before you see a majority of vehicles being BEV. In reality, if I had to put money on it, I would say closer to 40. Unless we are just talking cars, as in sedans. Those numbers are dwindling drastically, so that may be possible in 20. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) SuperCharging requires a digital handshake with Tesla to initiate the charge, especially since there are safety concerns. It's not something you can get with an adapter. And obviously there are no other vehicles that support rapid charging anyway besides Tesla. Edited October 17, 2018 by Assimilator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 BTW, I also heard today that the Aviator is getting an optional Air Suspension system. FINALLY! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msm859 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 That comes with a 2.0L turbo and a 87 hp electric motor and a combined 400 hp. Aviator is 3.0L Turbo with 400 hp by itself plus the electric motor - probably over 500 hp. I thought you said 118 hp wasn't enough for a plug in hybrid? It isn't. That was in response to someone saying there were no other luxury performance suv's in the market. The XC90 is already similar to what everyone here is claiming for the specs on the Aviator. I think Lincoln should blow the specs of the XC90 T8 out of the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.