Ford slides deeper into China rut after worst sales ever

[Assimilator]

I would question that insider, the Explorer/Aviator has been on the calendar for 2020 since 2014. CD6 has been in development since 2012 at least and may have been delayed for the 10-Speed Hybrid but it was definitely not sped up by Hackett. I mean this is just the facts, I don't care what your insider says honestly but they are clearly mistaken (not trying to be rude). Hackett hasn't sped anything up besides cutting costs, making decisions on the future of products, and committing to their next phase of electrification which was always pioneered under Fields management. The only time they talk about speeding things up is by shortening the development time using flexible platforms...all of which was work they had already done for the products on the schedule. New management can only cancel things, approve projects, and cut costs up front, the rest takes 3-4+ years of development. I don't think people realize the best they can do to speed up a project is perhaps a quarter or two, not years.

 

As much as Fields dragged his feet on decision making and cost cutting, the product process is very structured involving many departments who have to be scheduled. The longer a project sits on the shelf, the more it cost them money, especially among the suppliers they are contracted with for the project. They have a certain schedule they stick to very strictly...once it starts they have a deadline and they must meet that deadline at all cost or their costs skyrocket. Delays cost the company money, not save them money. The only cost saving delay is the green light, before the project is staffed and funded.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Assimilator

[akirby]

Not my insider. I believe it was simply put on hold while they considered extending the existing platform for a few more years. But I heard that from more than one source. Believe whatever you want to believe.

 

I think Hackett simply got it back on the original track and original dates.

Edited July 17, 2018 by akirby

[jpd80]

Interesting that C2 and CD6 projects appear to have begun after Mulally's departure in 2014,

if we add four years to those timings, most of the new products time for late 2018/ early 2019.

Edited July 17, 2018 by jpd80

[Assimilator]

Mullally did leave the docket fairly dry for Fields who did spearhead the current projects which naturally sprung from the system that Mullally created.

 

Fields can be credited for overseeing the great and innovative products that are coming, but can also be credited for failing to direct the company in the right direction while failing to fill gaps adequately and quickly. I think he knew what that direction needed to be (as did the board) but couldn't make it happen because of his hands-off management style and flaws in the Mullally OneFord system which needed to be overhauled. He spent too much time on what I generally call CEO pet projects, products that a nice for a low volume luxury carmaker but terrible for a volume brand like Ford (GT, Ford Performance, Lincoln & Luxury). He tried to make the changes the board wanted at the very last minute but Hackett kicked everything up several notches and returned the company back to financial discipline. Essentially the CEO is the puppet of the board unless they take leadership, which wasn't happening with Fields at all and they wanted him out as it was clear he wasn't leading or listening to the leadership.

 

I'm very curious what the current management and board thinks of all the Fields priorities (Luxury & Performance). Lincoln stopped speaking about itself after Fields left and Ford doesn't speak for Lincoln anymore so it's getting a little quiet for a company that tried to keep the conversation active. We are approaching the end of their 5-Year Fields plan so we should be ready to talk about the next phase soon. Ford Performance is getting a little muddy as they shed the more exotic products (Focus RS, Fiesta ST, GT) and essentially rebrand the "Sport" trim level on their utilities. I think it's smart to make them a little more mainstream but that's always how these performance brands transition at Ford, they essentially turn into an easily developed trim level (usually shared with Lincoln).

 

BEVs are something Fields was notoriously disinterested in because it's not something that drove his vision and it never made sense financially as the market weakened and the technology remained too expensive to pursue at scale. I still think this is why the board fired him, he didn't want to make the cost changes needed to accelerate their EV strategy because they are banking on Hybrids. Tesla (Among others) thrived better because they had a clear vision for the future while Ford appeared to be impossibly behind.

 

I don't think Fields was wrong, but he had the wrong priorities in play while the board (especially Bill Ford) made sure Ford was ready for electrification as a major efficiency strategy. And Fields was just an easy target to let go at a time when the company was facing a major crisis and just needed to promote their huge transition strategy. And it absolutely is, and always has been....not sure if it's unique in the business but I don't know how you don't impress and lead with what they are planning to do at such big volume.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Assimilator

[SoonerLS]

If CD6 has really been in development since 2012, there is no freaking way that its first car would come out in 2020 unless it had been delayed. That just makes no logical sense.

[fordmantpw]

If CD6 has really been in development since 2012, there is no freaking way that its first car would come out in 2020 unless it had been delayed. That just makes no logical sense.

 

If CD6 is everything we hear it is, 7-8 years is really not that long for an entirely new architecture, built to underpin many different models and vehicle sizes from Mustang to Aviator.

[mackinaw]

According to Autoline, GM's new EV platform will last more than ten years.

[akirby]

 

If CD6 is everything we hear it is, 7-8 years is really not that long for an entirely new architecture, built to underpin many different models and vehicle sizes from Mustang to Aviator.

 

Including all the platform architecture work that has to take place before you start designing the vehicles that go on it - absolutely. Especially when you factor in the hybrid component.

[fuzzymoomoo]

According to Autoline, GM's new EV platform will last more than ten years.

I expect CD6 to be the same. From what I understand the engineers are trying to make it as easy to upgrade in the future as possible, similar to what Toyota does with their platforms.

[rmc523]

Mullally did leave the docket fairly dry for Fields who did spearhead the current projects which naturally sprung from the system that Mullally created.

 

Fields can be credited for overseeing the great and innovative products that are coming, but can also be credited for failing to direct the company in the right direction while failing to fill gaps adequately and quickly. I think he knew what that direction needed to be (as did the board) but couldn't make it happen because of his hands-off management style and flaws in the Mullally OneFord system which needed to be overhauled. He spent too much time on what I generally call CEO pet projects, products that a nice for a low volume luxury carmaker but terrible for a volume brand like Ford (GT, Ford Performance, Lincoln & Luxury). He tried to make the changes the board wanted at the very last minute but Hackett kicked everything up several notches and returned the company back to financial discipline. Essentially the CEO is the puppet of the board unless they take leadership, which wasn't happening with Fields at all and they wanted him out as it was clear he wasn't leading or listening to the leadership.

 

I'm very curious what the current management and board thinks of all the Fields priorities (Luxury & Performance). Lincoln stopped speaking about itself after Fields left and Ford doesn't speak for Lincoln anymore so it's getting a little quiet for a company that tried to keep the conversation active. We are approaching the end of their 5-Year Fields plan so we should be ready to talk about the next phase soon. Ford Performance is getting a little muddy as they shed the more exotic products (Focus RS, Fiesta ST, GT) and essentially rebrand the "Sport" trim level on their utilities. I think it's smart to make them a little more mainstream but that's always how these performance brands transition at Ford, they essentially turn into an easily developed trim level (usually shared with Lincoln).

 

BEVs are something Fields was notoriously disinterested in because it's not something that drove his vision and it never made sense financially as the market weakened and the technology remained too expensive to pursue at scale. I still think this is why the board fired him, he didn't want to make the cost changes needed to accelerate their EV strategy because they are banking on Hybrids. Tesla (Among others) thrived better because they had a clear vision for the future while Ford appeared to be impossibly behind.

 

I don't think Fields was wrong, but he had the wrong priorities in play while the board (especially Bill Ford) made sure Ford was ready for electrification as a major efficiency strategy. And Fields was just an easy target to let go at a time when the company was facing a major crisis and just needed to promote their huge transition strategy. And it absolutely is, and always has been....not sure if it's unique in the business but I don't know how you don't impress and lead with what they are planning to do at such big volume.

 

I always thought the short term (Mulally) plan was to consolidate down to a few core architectures (C1, CD4, etc), and once that was done and the core segments stabilized, then, while continuing to invest in the core models, branch out - using those core architectures - into more niche segments (the subcompact utilities, crossover coupe, performance oriented type models). It seemed like that was happening under Fields to begin with, but then the core models were neglected and given band-aids to sew up giant lacerations.

 

I think we'll see Ford Performance continue and expand, especially with the coming powertrain advancements. There is a new Fiesta ST already, just not for the US. Focus RS has always been a "last hurrah!" model toward the end of the lifecycle. We're also seeing ST expand across the SUV lineup, and not in a Chevy, "lets slap the SS badge on everything" way. As for Lincoln, Navigator is definitely showing that the brand has life.....Aviator will be a big litmus test for the brand for the higher ups. On paper/in pictures it looks like it'll be a fantastic product. They desperately need it (and Nautilus and Corsair) to gain some traction in the market (without cannibalizing the other Lincoln models) so the brand can start to show some sizable growth with the investment being made in the brand's newest products.

 

I do think the hybrid strategy is the best overall brand strategy right now even if it's not the "sexy" path that full electric is. By that, I mean for the lineup as a whole - there can still be a few full electric models in the lineup, but not the whole lineup. I just don't think the infrastructure nor range/tech is quite there yet for electric to be viable to everyone the way gas is right now. I don't care what anyone says about recharging every night blah blah - until we have widespread fast charging similar to gas, with the range, and little battery degradation (that's a big thing I'm unsure about - how do these batteries hold up over time? My phone battery becomes crap after a few years, but a car is supposed to hold up fine?), you're not going to see electric be a viable alternative for most people. People do still want to take road trips, and not everyone can afford to have an electric "toy" second car, nor do they want to have to take pre-determined longer routes to fast chargers to have to wait at least 30 mins to charge, not including waiting for an available charger. That's why I think a broad-scale hybridization plan is the best in the mid term until technology and infrastructure gets us to the point where electric is as "flexible" as gas.

[Harley Lover]

We're also seeing ST expand across the SUV lineup, and not in a Chevy, "lets slap the SS badge on everything" way.

 

For my money, the jury is out on that one, at least with regard to the upcoming Edge ST. I want to know exactly how much development work has gone into the suspension by the SVT folk before I'm sold. The descriptions that have been shared so far don't give any clear indication one way or the other, only that it has the higher performance engine, the usual trim bits, and a "sport tuned" suspension. That could mean anything, including the same cynical "performance models" we've gotten from the manufacturers since the '70's.

[Harley Lover]

I do think the hybrid strategy is the best overall brand strategy right now even if it's not the "sexy" path that full electric is. By that, I mean for the lineup as a whole - there can still be a few full electric models in the lineup, but not the whole lineup.

 

Agree, and I think most of the main line manufacturers will be implementing their version of this approach. The coming influx of PIH models from the Euro manufacturers will be something to behold.

[akirby]

 

For my money, the jury is out on that one, at least with regard to the upcoming Edge ST. I want to know exactly how much development work has gone into the suspension by the SVT folk before I'm sold. The descriptions that have been shared so far don't give any clear indication one way or the other, only that it has the higher performance engine, the usual trim bits, and a "sport tuned" suspension. That could mean anything, including the same cynical "performance models" we've gotten from the manufacturers since the '70's.

 

Why would they go to the trouble of tuning the engine and transmission and not tune something as simple as shocks and springs? When has Ford Performance not done suspension tuning?

[Assimilator]

Ford's 10-Speed Hybrid is similar to EcoBoost, it's an efficiency strategy that adds benefits without sacrifice and is being pushed across a larger volume. It's very different than typical electrification or hybrids which are about efficiency only. It's actually closer to the approach we see from premium luxury brands. You're getting more power out of the 10-Speed Hybrid with a smaller engine while maintaining the fuel economy of a smaller engine. It's efficient but fun and reliable with some nice bonus features (like fuel efficient AWD). The FWD C2 hybrids are more of an evolution of what we're familiar with and should be more about delivering 40MPG+ efficiency.

 

Ford's BEV program is more longterm with not much product on the immediate timeline, I think there is going to be some frustration with that despite the Hybrids. The Mach 1 isn't even coming until late 2021.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Assimilator

[Harley Lover]

 

Why would they go to the trouble of tuning the engine and transmission and not tune something as simple as shocks and springs? When has Ford Performance not done suspension tuning?

 

If you think tuning the suspension is "simple" then I can't help you.

[akirby]

If you think tuning the suspension is "simple" then I can't help you.

 

What I meant was it’s not difficult to swap out shocks and springs and it’s not overly expensive either. I understand that getting it right is complicated with lots of variables, but to think that Ford Performance would not have tuned the suspension on the Edge ST just sounds ridiculous to me.

[Harley Lover]

What I meant was it’s not difficult to swap out shocks and springs and it’s not overly expensive either. I understand that getting it right is complicated with lots of variables, but to think that Ford Performance would not have tuned the suspension on the Edge ST just sounds ridiculous to me.

 

It might sound ridiculous, but it would not be surprising for a company in cost cutting mode under the direction of a person who doesn't understand the product to make a decision to cut costs by simply installing 'heavy duty' shocks/struts and 'heavy duty' sway bars, etc., and call it a 'sport tuned' suspension and move on. I do not have faith that this vehicle represents a true effort from SVT until they say so. I'll be happy if they say they did the work, but I'm skeptical until they say it.

[Harley Lover]

What is 'expensive' is the development effort to get the suspension right. It might sound ridiculous, but it would not be surprising for a company in cost cutting mode under the direction of a person who doesn't understand the product to make a decision to cut costs by simply installing 'heavy duty' shocks/struts and 'heavy duty' sway bars, etc., and call it a 'sport tuned' suspension and move on. I do not have faith that this vehicle represents a true effort from SVT until they say so. I'll be happy if they say they did the work, but I'm skeptical until they say it.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Harley Lover

[akirby]

They said it's ST tunes suspension and there are different part numbers for the shocks and springs but they haven't said exactly what they changed.

[rmc523]

What I meant was it’s not difficult to swap out shocks and springs and it’s not overly expensive either. I understand that getting it right is complicated with lots of variables, but to think that Ford Performance would not have tuned the suspension on the Edge ST just sounds ridiculous to me.

 

They were also specifically mentioning that Ford Performance tuned the suspension setup when it debuted

 

They wouldn't do that if they didn't - they'd just do the generic "sport tuned suspension" line.

[grbeck]

 

It might sound ridiculous, but it would not be surprising for a company in cost cutting mode under the direction of a person who doesn't understand the product to make a decision to cut costs by simply installing 'heavy duty' shocks/struts and 'heavy duty' sway bars, etc., and call it a 'sport tuned' suspension and move on. I do not have faith that this vehicle represents a true effort from SVT until they say so. I'll be happy if they say they did the work, but I'm skeptical until they say it.

 

Isn't that what the domestic manufacturers used to do in the 1960s - aka, the "Good Old Days?"

 

If you wanted better handling, you ordered the "heavy duty" suspension option. But then your new car rode like a truck.

[jpd80]

 

It might sound ridiculous, but it would not be surprising for a company in cost cutting mode under the direction of a person who doesn't understand the product to make a decision to cut costs by simply installing 'heavy duty' shocks/struts and 'heavy duty' sway bars, etc., and call it a 'sport tuned' suspension and move on. I do not have faith that this vehicle represents a true effort from SVT until they say so. I'll be happy if they say they did the work, but I'm skeptical until they say it.

They don't just swap tires shocks and use the same tune, today's car have body control computers

that need to be calibrated and validated, somebody has to do that and ensure that it brakes and

corners properly as well as jounce over bumps but more importantly, calibration at the limits of

adhesion so that dynamic stability control operates properly.

 

Keep in mind that this is still a higher riding utility compared to those earlier SVT cars from another tme,

I think that SVT brand is long dead and much of the Edge ST is just rebranding of the Edge Sport to

realign with other ST models.

 

Ford performance involvement in vehicles is limited to things like the hot Mustangs, Focus RS and the Raptors.

I don't think that Ford performance is involved in development of ST models unless specifically called out by Ford.

Edited July 19, 2018 by jpd80

[rmc523]

They don't just swap tires shocks and use the same tune, today's car have body control computers

that need to be calibrated and validated, somebody has to do that and ensure that it brakes and

corners properly as well as jounce over bumps but more importantly, calibration at the limits of

adhesion so that dynamic stability control operates properly.

 

Keep in mind that this is still a higher riding utility compared to those earlier SVT cars from another tme,

I think that SVT brand is long dead and much of the Edge ST is just rebranding of the Edge Sport to

realign with other ST models.

 

Ford performance involvement in vehicles is limited to things like the hot Mustangs, Focus RS and the Raptors.

I don't think that Ford performance is involved in development of ST models unless specifically called out by Ford.

 

Here was the press release:

 

http://performance.ford.com/enthusiasts/media-room/20180/01/ford-edge-st.html

 

A highlight from it:

 

 

 

The all-new Edge ST – Ford’s first SUV to be tuned by the Ford Performance team – features the most powerful V6 engine available in its class with a specially tuned 2.7-liter twin-turbocharged EcoBoost® engine pumping out 335 horsepower and 380 lb.-ft. of torque.

It’s also outfitted for dynamic handling with a quick-shifting 8-speed automatic transmission, standard all-wheel drive with selectable traction control, an available performance brake package, and ST-tuned sport suspension.

[Harley Lover]

I've got to release some of my recent disappointment with Ford, here's a pic in which the Edge ST is pictured with other Ford Performance Vehicles, the implication is clear:

 

[fuzzymoomoo]

They might as well take 2 of those out of that picture....