akirby Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 IIHS' new tests help ensure the benchmark for automotive safety stays high. As Assimilator mentioned in post 41, the IIHS test results are helpful for new car shoppers. They can act as a tiebreaker for otherwise similar vehicles. Makes sense to choose the models with the best IIHS ratings, everything else being equal. Every new test is statistically more insignificant in real world crashes. IIHS has been very successful convincing people otherwise. Anyone who listens to them at this point doesn't understand probability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 This post paid for by the IIHS. I wish insurance companies would pay me more than I pay them! Haven't filed a single claim on any of my P&C policies since 2007. Seriously though, IIHS tests are beneficial for consumers not just insurance companies. They encourage automakers to make their vehicles safer, and they expose which automakers are most committed to their customers' safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Every new test is statistically more insignificant in real world crashes. No sir. It's the opposite. The new tests take into account different scenarios that occur in real world crashes other than straight frontal crashes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Every new test is statistically more insignificant in real world crashes. IIHS has been very successful convincing people otherwise. Anyone who listens to them at this point doesn't understand probability. I agree to an extent BUT I also think small overlap is a bigger concern now than it was 15-20 years ago. Doesnt take much to cross a yellow line when someone is texting or on Facebook. Youve essentially added a ton of drunk drivers to the roads on a daily basis. It might not be the difference between life and death BUT it could very likely be the difference between no injury and walking with a cane the rest of your life. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Doesnt take much to cross a yellow line when someone is texting or on Facebook. Youve essentially added a ton of drunk drivers to the roads on a daily basis. But that is small overlap on the driver's side not the passenger side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 But that is small overlap on the driver's side not the passenger side. True. Though I suppose it helps when said person hits a parked car or pole. Seriously I see a LOT of folks not even pretending to be watching the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 No sir. It's the opposite. The new tests take into account different scenarios that occur in real world crashes other than straight frontal crashes. You just proved you don't understand probability. This is a test at a very specific angle on the passenger side of the vehicle with an immovable barrier with a passenger in the vehicle at a very specific speed. Change any one of those factors and you get a different result. How many accidents in the real world do you honestly believe fit these parameters? Not very many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) How many accidents in the real world do you honestly believe fit these parameters? A lot of them that resulted in serious injuries to vehicle occupants. In 2012, IIHS analyzed 116 real world frontal crashes involving vehicles that rated good at the time. 24% of the crashes with serious injuries to occupants were small overlap (driver and passenger sides). Small overlap and moderate overlap combined accounted for nearly half of the crashes with serious injuries. That's why IIHS extended its crash testing program to evaluate offset or overlap crashes. Very smart move on their part. Automakers have been improving offset crash protection in cars and light trucks since then. That's a major benefit for motorists. Edited June 14, 2018 by rperez817 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Where does it say how many of the small overlap were driver vs. passenger side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 IIHS is a car insurance lobby group masquerading as a safety organization. Letting IIHS set car safety agenda is a bit like letting NRA set gun sale policy - which is what we have now but at least most people understand the NRA case is a gross conflict of interest and dereliction of duty on the part of US congress. The ultimate goal of both organization is the increase the revenue and profit of the companies they represent. The key difference being that IIHS meddles in another industry's product standards, while NRA is transparently self-interested. IIHS test vehicles to find new ways for its members to justify rate increases and shift the burden of car crashes back to the consumer who purchased the vehicles rather than the insurance companies. So the test gets more esoteric every couple of years to knock more vehicles into "poor" or "marginal" categories. Although let me be clear... I'm not saying IIHS is useless. They actually do very good job of prodding car companies to go beyond NHTSA standards. The problem is the IIHS's standards are not scientifically developed and not subject to regulatory review and scrutiny. It is basically what the car insurance company say they don't want to insure certain kind of losses. We don't usually tolerate private industries setting standards for another industry in this country but IIHS gets away with it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Where does it say how many of the small overlap were driver vs. passenger side? Didn't say in the IIHS brochure. That's where the pie chart is from. It only says that the overall numbers were for both driver and passenger. I got the brochure from the Fort Worth Auto Show a few years back. IIHS had a booth there. You can contact IIHS directly, maybe they can provide the numbers you're looking for. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/contact-information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 The problem is the IIHS's standards are not scientifically developed Yes they are. Documents for the crash test and rating protocols including bibliography and revision history are available for download on the IIHS website. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/technical-information/technical-protocols 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 IIHS is a car insurance lobby group masquerading as a safety organization. Letting IIHS set car safety agenda is a bit like letting NRA set gun sale policy - which is what we have now but at least most people understand the NRA case is a gross conflict of interest and dereliction of duty on the part of US congress. The ultimate goal of both organization is the increase the revenue and profit of the companies they represent. The key difference being that IIHS meddles in another industry's product standards, while NRA is transparently self-interested. "Most people" know no such thing, and this is far from the proper forum for this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Yes they are. Documents for the crash test and rating protocols including bibliography and revision history are available for download on the IIHS website. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/technical-information/technical-protocols But it seems to me like IIHS is choosing the next standard to be updated. They are getting more and more specific. They want small offset. Now they are doing headlights. They will be holding the top scores from cars that don't have automatic braking. Next, they'll be dinging a car over the dash being "distractive" or some other BS. The whole IIHS testing will also be turned on it's head when fully autonomous vehicles come out. If they're software doesn't do this, this, and that, it's not worthy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Didn't say in the IIHS brochure. That's because common sense says most of those are driver's side collisions which would reduce the perceived effectiveness of the small offset passenger test. We've reached the point of diminishing returns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) And then consider the real world data on 2011-2014 Explorer that are measured fatalities per million vehicles, were talking of 3 per million vehicles in AWD and 27 per million in 2WD. While it's never good to see any fatalities, it actually shows that most crashes were survivable - we don't get to see data on the survivable serious crashes with victims transported to hospital.. Driver's side small overlap test is an extension of crashes that can and do occur in the real world but at a much lower frequency to moderate offset crash test and the extension to passenger side small overlap test becomes a fraction of a fraction of crashes where there may or may not be a passenger. You only have to look at the daily commute in most cities and out lying dormitory cities to realize that probably over 90% of vehicles have just the driver. Edited June 15, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 IIHS is a car insurance lobby group masquerading as a safety organization. Letting IIHS set car safety agenda is a bit like letting NRA set gun sale policy - which is what we have now but at least most people understand the NRA case is a gross conflict of interest and dereliction of duty on the part of US congress. The ultimate goal of both organization is the increase the revenue and profit of the companies they represent. The key difference being that IIHS meddles in another industry's product standards, while NRA is transparently self-interested. IIHS test vehicles to find new ways for its members to justify rate increases and shift the burden of car crashes back to the consumer who purchased the vehicles rather than the insurance companies. So the test gets more esoteric every couple of years to knock more vehicles into "poor" or "marginal" categories. Although let me be clear... I'm not saying IIHS is useless. They actually do very good job of prodding car companies to go beyond NHTSA standards. The problem is the IIHS's standards are not scientifically developed and not subject to regulatory review and scrutiny. It is basically what the car insurance company say they don't want to insure certain kind of losses. We don't usually tolerate private industries setting standards for another industry in this country but IIHS gets away with it. Last time I checked, this is a Ford enthusiast forum. Perhaps post the politics in a different forum as things like this can go far afield very quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 It’s borderline but it is on topic. Let’s not take it any further though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 The IIHS does have an agenda in representing insurance companies but those objectives align with improved safety of vehicles, lowering death toll and serious injuries on occupants. It also gives justification for increasing insurance premiums because some manufacturers "fail" to pass ever increasing safety tests. As manufacturers comply with new standards, the costs of repairs increases causing an increase in insurance premiums.....it's a win win win situation for insurance companies.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 (edited) This is a prime example how our society loves bad news. Bad news sells. If it bleeds it leads! This junk has hit YouTube and all the news outlets. When the mkx got a top safety pick it hardly was mentioned. Interestingly enough, the explorer has taken the worst of it because I havent seen a crashed Jeep picture spread all over like the explorer. I truly believe the US manufacturers are not treated the same by the media. One example was on Detroit news the other week. Article headlined gm recalls 100k vehicles in that article about at the end of it it said also Kia recalls 88k vans. This stuff pisses me off. Damn media and our society is always waving the American flag and shouting buy American products. Then the next breath they do stuff like this to make the products look much worse. This is one of the reasons that the 3 cant get away from the stigma of making crap products. Not saying everything is completely fine with the Detroit 3. However, I dont see the gap as large as the American public perception. Below is a link of some crap Im talking about. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2018/06/15/ford-mpg-environmentalist-ads/706026002/ Edited June 16, 2018 by fordtech1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 This is a prime example how our society loves bad news. Bad news sells. If it bleeds it leads! On the flip side, thanks to the unspeakably awful 24 hour news cycle, it will all be forgotten after the next celebrity opens his or her yap about some stupid thing or another tomorrow. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 (edited) Last year the world was coming to an end over Explorer exhaust fumes in the cabin... And before that Escape having too many recalls Edited June 17, 2018 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 (edited) This is a prime example how our society loves bad news. Bad news sells. If it bleeds it leads! This junk has hit YouTube and all the news outlets. When the mkx got a top safety pick it hardly was mentioned. Interestingly enough, the explorer has taken the worst of it because I havent seen a crashed Jeep picture spread all over like the explorer. I truly believe the US manufacturers are not treated the same by the media. One example was on Detroit news the other week. Article headlined gm recalls 100k vehicles in that article about at the end of it it said also Kia recalls 88k vans. This stuff pisses me off. Damn media and our society is always waving the American flag and shouting buy American products. Then the next breath they do stuff like this to make the products look much worse. This is one of the reasons that the 3 cant get away from the stigma of making crap products. Not saying everything is completely fine with the Detroit 3. However, I dont see the gap as large as the American public perception. Below is a link of some crap Im talking about. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2018/06/15/ford-mpg-environmentalist-ads/706026002/ GM is an American manufacturer and scored excellent so I don't really understand that perception of American bias here. These are companies, not countries and it doesn't hurt to hold them to account so they get better. In this case Ford Explorer certainly deserves some attention because it's popular, well known, and a standout poor performer among a crowd of good performers. That's news worthy I would say. Edited June 17, 2018 by Assimilator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 GM is an American manufacturer and scored excellent so I don't really understand that perception of American bias here. These are companies, not countries and it doesn't hurt to hold them to account so they get better. In this case Ford Explorer certainly deserves some attention because it's popular, well known, and a standout poor performer among a crowd of good performers. That's news worthy I would say. My point is in that example is the Domestic manufacturer with a recall headlined while a foreign manufacturer was just tucked away in the bottom of the article. I have no issue with this making news. However, being the sensationalist that the media is, its completely blown out of proportion. How many recalls have you seen headline from domestic vehicles vs foreign? Look at Tesla, a safe vehicle, half a dozen crash and you would think by reading the news that they are death traps. When in reality, the auto pilot is under developed and the consumer trusts the marketing over the operation instructions. I guess all in all the news knows the American public who only reads headlines and they profit on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 GM is an American manufacturer and scored excellent so I don't really understand that perception of American bias here. These are companies, not countries and it doesn't hurt to hold them to account so they get better. In this case Ford Explorer certainly deserves some attention because it's popular, well known, and a standout poor performer among a crowd of good performers. That's news worthy I would say. I guess we better blow our Ford horns. GM sucked at the 1/2 ton pickup truck small overlap test. It rated poor. F150 was not only a top pick, the only one to be rated "good" in the test. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopnews/tough-test-for-pickups-ford-f-150-nabs-lone-good-rating-for-small-overlap-protection I don't take much stock in a weaker score on a "new" test. It's like the others have said, it's overhyped marketing. BTW, Ram Toyota and Chevy all scored poorly in lower leg damage for small overlap test. Which is where you'd expect the injuries to be in that test... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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