GT500 spied with automatic transmission

[jpd80]

 

I think you forgot one key ingredient....performance. The truth is the DCT will wipe the floor in all performance aspects compared to the manual, especially with this much HP. Unless you are maybe a true race driver, you will not be able to keep up with the DCT (shifts are faster, rev matching), even then that is expecting the driver to not be human and screw up a shift or not screw up a heel toe. Is the GT500 a performance car? Yes it is. I am assuming due to cost, they had to pick one. Why would they not pick the one with the best performance? I am sure they could have offered a manual but why? Performance is worse and it adds unnecessary cost to the car. Just to satisfy a shrinking pool of auto enthusiast? I am pretty sure everyone can drive the DCT.

 

This is starting to sound like the Panther mafia argument. People hate change but change is constant. I am sure we'll hear this again in a few years when the NG Mustang hybrid has better performance than the V8.

Back the fuck up pal.

The people buying these cars will tell Ford what they do and don't want and it is their choice

to buy or not buy, I personally have no dog in this fight..

I also said this:

It would be wrong to be dismissive of the 2020 GT500 before seeing what's actually offered,

Ford may surprise the heck out of us all.

 

Some Mustang Gt buyer like driving manuals and Ford still supplies plenty of them for anyone who wants one

and I am sure that Ford knows the HP market best, not offering a DSG in GT350 may have been a mistake

but every buyer went into that sale knowing it was manual only, the GT500 will be an impressive [package for sure

and that's why people need to keep and open mind.

Edited May 17, 2018 by jpd80

[brucelinc]

Those who like manuals and are willing to give up performance can buy a GT 350 or just a Mustang GT. A manual in a GT 500 seems completely counter productive given its purpose and mission.

[jpd80]

I remain very optimistic that most buyers will come on board with DSG being a good call

even if some would have preferred a manual.

[jcartwright99]

Back the fuck up pal.

The people buying these cars will tell Ford what they do and don't want and it is their choice

to buy or not buy, I personally have no dog in this fight......

 

Whoa...no need to be internet tough guy because I don't agree with what you are saying. When did you become the mouth of what GT500 owners want anyways. I will state that this my opinion, you can agree or disagree with it if you want. I don't care.

 

Ford does their research on the market for these cars and whose buying them. Ford will take this into consideration, but ultimately Ford dictates what they decide to produce. Not the other way around. Whether it's a sales success is a different story. I will say this, at the risk of offending some of the older posters here, but boomers are not the target market for this car. Boomers are a shrinking demographic for buying cars like these. Much like what is happening in the Corvette camp these days, is what will be happening in the Mustang camp. The reason they are changing the Corvette to mid engine is to attract younger affluent buyers. Nostalgia is great and all but doesn't mean diddly poo when it comes to selling performance if you can't back it up.

[jpd80]

 

Whoa...no need to be internet tough guy because I don't agree with what you are saying. When did you become the mouth of what GT500 owners want anyways. I will state that this my opinion, you can agree or disagree with it if you want. I don't care.

I didn't become their mouth piece, I tried to be the voice of reason but then you raised "panther mafia" something I am definitely not.

 

,

...

 

 

Ford does their research on the market for these cars and whose buying them. Ford will take this into consideration, but ultimately Ford dictates what they decide to produce. Not the other way around. Whether it's a sales success is a different story.

There are also instances where Ford listened to customers concerns and actually went back and redesigned the Mustang

so they do listen and take direction from certain buyers - not all. All I'm saying is that we need to be reasonable here

and see what's offered as Ford might surprise the heck out of those unsure about the car.

 

 

Boomers are a shrinking demographic for buying cars like these. Much like what is happening in the Corvette camp these days, is what will be happening in the Mustang camp. The reason they are changing the Corvette to mid engine is to attract younger affluent buyers. Nostalgia is great and all but doesn't mean diddly poo when it comes to selling performance if you can't back it up.

GM spends a lot of money on cars, sometimes without a lot of sense attached...

 

nuff said.

Edited May 17, 2018 by jpd80

[jcartwright99]

I didn't become their mouth piece, I tried to be the voice of reason but then you raised "panther mafia" something I am definitely not.

 

 

There are also instances where Ford listened to customers concerns and actually went back and redesigned the Mustang

so they do listen and take direction from certain buyers - not all. All I'm saying is that we need to be reasonable here

and see what's offered as Ford migh surprise the heck out of those unsure about the car.

 

nuff said.

 

I didn't realize Panther Mafia were fighting words LOL

 

While I am sure Ford doesn't want to alienate current GT500 owners, I think they are looking at a bigger audience. Slapping a supercharger on Mustang and make it fast in the quarter mile has always been a thing. What has not always been a thing is making a complete fast car that can compete not just with the Camaro but global performance cars. I think you started to see this shift when the Boss 302 came out. While the last generation GT500 handled better and had the power, it definitely had it's shortcomings (can't put down power, was a handful on tighter course with all that power, etc). The GT350 built on that and was lauded by just about everyone. What I think we'll see is a much needed evolution for the GT500 where it will be able to hold it's own with the Hellcat at the strip, plus hang with the big boys at the track. We shall see!

[silvrsvt]

Whether it's a sales success is a different story. I will say this, at the risk of offending some of the older posters here, but boomers are not the target market for this car. Boomers are a shrinking demographic for buying cars like these. Much like what is happening in the Corvette camp these days, is what will be happening in the Mustang camp. The reason they are changing the Corvette to mid engine is to attract younger affluent buyers. Nostalgia is great and all but doesn't mean diddly poo when it comes to selling performance if you can't back it up.

 

The issue with the Mid-engine Vette is how many do they expect to sell at what is most likely going to be a much higher price? They sell about 25K Vettes a year now. Taking a look at other mid-engined Sports cars out there-none of them come close to that number. I can see the mid engine Vette as a low production range topper/halo car, but I don't think they be able to replace current vette outright

[jpd80]

 

Has anyone on here driven a performance DCT? I haven't but I am not going to pan it automatically. I love manuals too but the performance gap is just going to get bigger and bigger. Also electric cars won't use a manual either so please prepare yourself for it's inevitable death. Is it more engaging to drive?

olive branch

You get more car feel than a true auto, you can manualize the shift by either moving shifter to the side

and strait line shift up and down or use buttons on the steering wheel, just get use to not swinging the clutch pedal.

 

The big issue is getting manual buyers to give up clutch pedal and H pattern shift, do that and you're 90% there.

It feels like a manual with engine brake when you down shift, not soft like an auto going into the corner.

 

This GT500 will be a lot different to the last which was really a straight line performer.

The new car is expected to be a true high speed performance car that can go and

handle as well as brake and steer. GT500 w/ DCT may actually leap frog Camaro ZL1

and give ZL1 1LE. stiff competition.

Edited May 17, 2018 by jpd80

[jcartwright99]

 

The issue with the Mid-engine Vette is how many do they expect to sell at what is most likely going to be a much higher price? They sell about 25K Vettes a year now. Taking a look at other mid-engined Sports cars out there-none of them come close to that number. I can see the mid engine Vette as a low production range topper/halo car, but I don't think they be able to replace current vette outright

 

Nothing is set in stone at this time but (yes, I am going to play this card).....I have a friend that works on modeling and aero on GM performance cars. Word is, and this isn't anything that hasn't been speculated on the Vette/GM boards, is that they were getting volume but not getting a good return on the Vette. A lot of discounts get you that 25k in sales, usually on the low to mid models. Now the Vette has always been a great bang for your buck in regards to performance but for all the engineering that goes into it they don't make a ton of money even on the high end (0 discount models). Realizing this and that their current buyers are getting older and not buying Vettes like the used to they decided to do the ME Vette to go after the younger more affluent crowd (think of the guys that lusted after a Nissan GTR in college and now have the funds to spend 100-200 on a high end sports car). Now, it's been a rumor basically forever but they actually gave it funding. We now know it's going to happen soon. Last I heard they will update the FE Vette soon (I think with some powertrain upgrades) but not a new platform. The goal is to sell both for a few years so they will have the bottom end covered and the high end as well. As far as I know nothing has been finalized after that. From what I hear expect better than Ford GT levels of performance for way less.

[Sevensecondsuv]

Now that I think about it, why couldn't they just put a traditional clutch between the engine and the new DCT? It's there if you want to use it, but also not necessary if you don't want to use it. Just put the requisite sensors in so that the ECU can tell when the driver is using the clutch and respond appropriately.

 

Personally, the automated shifting of the dct isn't the deal breaker. The deal breaker is the lack of the ability to instantly couple and decouple the engine the from the tires that the clutch gives you. There's really no reason to have to give this up just to get automated gear shifting.

 

It really would be the best of both worlds. Fully automatic when you want it and you also get a clutch pedal to make hooning that much more fun and dramatic.

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

Nothing is set in stone at this time but (yes, I am going to play this card).....I have a friend that works on modeling and aero on GM performance cars. Word is, and this isn't anything that hasn't been speculated on the Vette/GM boards, is that they were getting volume but not getting a good return on the Vette. A lot of discounts get you that 25k in sales, usually on the low to mid models. Now the Vette has always been a great bang for your buck in regards to performance but for all the engineering that goes into it they don't make a ton of money even on the high end (0 discount models). Realizing this and that their current buyers are getting older and not buying Vettes like the used to they decided to do the ME Vette to go after the younger more affluent crowd (think of the guys that lusted after a Nissan GTR in college and now have the funds to spend 100-200 on a high end sports car). Now, it's been a rumor basically forever but they actually gave it funding. We now know it's going to happen soon. Last I heard they will update the FE Vette soon (I think with some powertrain upgrades) but not a new platform. The goal is to sell both for a few years so they will have the bottom end covered and the high end as well. As far as I know nothing has been finalized after that. From what I hear expect better than Ford GT levels of performance for way less.

Sounds like theyre trying what Ford is trying with cancelling sedans and going for higher margins at less volume.

[jcartwright99]

Sounds like theyre trying what Ford is trying with cancelling sedans and going for higher margins at less volume.

To a degree....but Camaro gets more room to grow (performance and price wise) if Vette eventually goes ME only. It's hard to really extrapolate much from sales numbers without knowing what the margin was. I know for a while there cash on the hood was a given.

[akirby]

Now that I think about it, why couldn't they just put a traditional clutch between the engine and the new DCT? It's there if you want to use it, but also not necessary if you don't want to use it. Just put the requisite sensors in so that the ECU can tell when the driver is using the clutch and respond appropriately.

 

Personally, the automated shifting of the dct isn't the deal breaker. The deal breaker is the lack of the ability to instantly couple and decouple the engine the from the tires that the clutch gives you. There's really no reason to have to give this up just to get automated gear shifting.

 

It really would be the best of both worlds. Fully automatic when you want it and you also get a clutch pedal to make hooning that much more fun and dramatic.

 

Not sure how that would work with paddle shifters. It needs an electrically controlled clutch to go with the computer controlled shifting. In what scenario would you want to use this manual clutch?

[Sevensecondsuv]

 

Not sure how that would work with paddle shifters. It needs an electrically controlled clutch to go with the computer controlled shifting. In what scenario would you want to use this manual clutch?

The manual clutch would be in the "normal" location between the engine and trans and be in addition to the automated clutches inside the DCT.

 

When the pedal is out, it would work like the clutch is not there at all - power would flow from the engine through the DCT like any other DCT. But then the driver would have the option of pressing the clutch to decouple the engine if he wanted to like in a standard manual transmission. Work the ECU so that it doesn't use the internal clutches (i.e. doesn't shift) if it senses the driver using the external clutch. Alternatively use a dash switch to select a "mode".

 

Just an idea that would need some technicalities worked out but I can see some interesting benefits to such a mechanism.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Sevensecondsuv

[akirby]

But that’s what I’m trying to figure out - under what circumstance would you actually use it and how? Not getting it.

[Sevensecondsuv]

Well, one application would be if you want to a burnout. Clutches are nice for that. Also, a clutch is nice (but not mandatory) for launching at the strip when combined with an ecu that has launch control. It works by sensing clutch pedal position and when the clutch is in, limits RPM (despite the gas pedal being floored) to a preset value that allows the driver to control the engines output and/or boost to the ideal value for available traction. Then you just sidestep the clutch and as it senses the pedal position move to the engage position the ECU lets the engine go full power.

 

The equivalent to this on an automatic is a line lock on the rear brakes.

 

Even certain instances on a road track or just in everyday driving, it's nice to be able to instantly decouple the powertrain, whether to assist in handling (let all available traction go to cornering without wasting any on accel or decel) or avoiding an accident on the streets.

 

As to how - well, you'd just push the clutch pedal.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Sevensecondsuv

[ZanatWork]

Here's something for all the "get over it" people:

the Mustang was going to be a fwd coupe going into the 90's, too...and the writing was supposedly on the wall, nothing we can do, etc etc etc.

The Mustang faithful disagreed, and got Ford to re-think the iconic pony car while GM temporarily gave up on the Camaro (and killed the Firebird). While many of us will remember that the next decade and a half involved further evolution to the ol' Fox platform, it was a ton better than what would become the short-lived Probe (though I admit a fondness for the later V6/5-speed GT models).

If we seriously want a manual option in the car, we make a ton of noise and/or vote with our dollars...so no, we don't simply have to "accept", "get over it", or "move on".

[351cid]

As some know, I a truck driver. In my industry there have been automatic class 8 tractors for over a decade. They are very popular, especially for those that can't shift a non synchronized transmission. Supposedly, they are more efficient & reduce driver fatigue.

 

I've done short term leases (2-3 weeks) on some of these God awful things several times to evaluate (encouraged by my lease agent) performance. I've probably driven 15k miles.

 

I don't like them. Senegal things are nit picks, but there are safety concerns as well. They don't do well in snow. They don't do well in tight situations. The only contact I've had with another vehicle in a truck was trying to park in snow. I realize that the auto manufacturers can tame some of the harshness, but my whole point is control. A computer will NEVER be able to replace skilled human control in certain situations.

 

A new GT500 will no longer be an aspiration of mine. That car might be hell on wheels in a drag race, but a good gear man will eat it up on a twisty track, IMO.

[akirby]

a good gear man will eat it up on a twisty track, IMO.

Nope. Not happening. DCTs are just as efficient as manuals at getting power to the wheels and they shift exponentially faster than any human being can shift manually. Even in automatic mode.

 

The ONLY reason to want a manual is for sentimental/emotional reasons - and there’s nothing wrong with that. Just don’t try to make up objective reasons that aren’t true.

[351cid]

Nope. Not happening. DCTs are just as efficient as manuals at getting power to the wheels and they shift exponentially faster than any human being can shift manually. Even in automatic mode.

 

The ONLY reason to want a manual is for sentimental/emotional reasons - and theres nothing wrong with that. Just dont try to make up objective reasons that arent true.

I am going to politely disagree. In racing in the twistys; there is a "feel" that isn't achieved with an auto. Many of my friends that autocross have converted their cars to manuals because of this. One of my buddies even converted his 85 Monte Carlo to a 6 speed because he felt he was at a disadvantage with the auto.

 

It's possible that learning to drive that auto is the real difference. But at my age, unlearning 30 years of knowledge & feel isn't easy.

[fordmantpw]

An automatic is not even close to a DCT. Multiply your 30 years of experience by 10000 and thats what has gone into the programming of a performance DCT. Itll eat a manuals lunch any day.

[Sevensecondsuv]

An automatic is not even close to a DCT. Multiply your 30 years of experience by 10000 and thats what has gone into the programming of a performance DCT. Itll eat a manuals lunch any day.

Actually, the autoshift units used in tractors that he was talking about are much closer to a DCT than a typical torque converter automatic.

[351cid]

Actually, the autoshift units used in tractors that he was talking about are much closer to a DCT than a typical torque converter automatic.

Actually, I believe they are DCT. The computer clutches & shifts. Very much like my daughter's Focus & my son's Fiesta did.

[351cid]

An automatic is not even close to a DCT. Multiply your 30 years of experience by 10000 and thats what has gone into the programming of a performance DCT. Itll eat a manuals lunch any day.

One of my nit picks about the auto shift in the tractors is that the computer determines when the shift occurs in manual mode. Sometimes it's instantaneous, others have a delay. My Fusion does the same thing (I know it's not A DCT), so this is what I base my opinion on.

[351cid]

An automatic is not even close to a DCT. Multiply your 30 years of experience by 10000 and thats what has gone into the programming of a performance DCT. Itll eat a manuals lunch any day.

Also... I don't disagree that the shifting is quicker & more precise (coming from someone who has blown a few engines by missing a shift) . What I haven't properly expressed is that when you down shift in a corner, you want it to be when you decide in order to keep the chassis neutral. That's the feel I was referring to.