GT500 spied with automatic transmission

[akirby]

Also... I don't disagree that the shifting is quicker & more precise (coming from someone who has blown a few engines by missing a shift) . What I haven't properly expressed is that when you down shift in a corner, you want it to be when you decide in order to keep the chassis neutral. That's the feel I was referring to.

But with a DCT you are still deciding when to downshift in a corner or before a corner. You have complete control over gear selection when you want it using the paddles. And there is no torque converter - it’s direct gearing just like a manual.

 

Performance DCTs are nothing like regular automatics and they’re miles ahead of the cheaper Powershift.

 

They use them in racing instead of manuals precisely because they’re that much better.

[blwnsmoke]

But with a DCT you are still deciding when to downshift in a corner or before a corner. You have complete control over gear selection when you want it using the paddles. And there is no torque converter - its direct gearing just like a manual.

 

Performance DCTs are nothing like regular automatics and theyre miles ahead of the cheaper Powershift.

 

They use them in racing instead of manuals precisely because theyre that much better.

Except when you are turning the steering wheel more then 90 degrees and need to shift. I hated that in the mustang. Take off from a stop sign turning right and needing to shift with the steering wheel at 5:00.. so instead you are high revving because of not being able to hit the paddle.

[akirby]

The paddles have always been attached to the wheel on the ones I’ve experienced (I think) and the steering is tight enough you don’t have to move your hands, so the paddles are always available. If they’re fixed then that is a slight problem but not that much worse than having to steer with one hand all the time so the other one can shift.

[blwnsmoke]

The paddles have always been attached to the wheel on the ones Ive experienced (I think) and the steering is tight enough you dont have to move your hands, so the paddles are always available. If theyre fixed then that is a slight problem but not that much worse than having to steer with one hand all the time so the other one can shift.

Completely disagree. If you are on the track, sure I could see it being just fine. At a red light, stop sign, 4 way intersection or neighbor etc, you need to turn your steering wheel almost a full turn (80%+) to take that turn. There is no way to keep your hands on the paddles that are fixed to the steering wheel. So you either have to shift while the wheel is returning to center which is backward or you high rev the crap out of the motor in 1st gear till you can return your hands to 9 and 3 to shift to 2nd. It is very awkward and almost impossible in city type driving.

 

The GT500 may be a track beat but it isn't what I believe most will be buying it for.

 

When driving with a clutch, you can palm the wheel between all turns during driving allowing ease of shifting with a stick.

 

Paddles are great for track events but that's all.

[akirby]

Most people are only going to be driving like that in a straight line anyway. And you should never be driving that aggresively at a red light, stop sign or other residential street. If you’re driving normally you put it in auto mode so you’re only using the paddles on a track or when driving aggressively.

 

I don’t think some of you understand DCTs at all.

[tzach]

Nope. Not happening. DCTs are just as efficient as manuals at getting power to the wheels and they shift exponentially faster than any human being can shift manually. Even in automatic mode.

 

The ONLY reason to want a manual is for sentimental/emotional reasons - and there’s nothing wrong with that. Just don’t try to make up objective reasons that aren’t true.

 

No the reason people like manuals is the control. I want to decide the gear AND interact with the car. Yes you can control the shifts with the paddles but no matter how superior in every other way they may be the feeling will never be the same. That is what people who don't care about that interaction will never get or care about. What gets me is I bet the majority of the naysayers have never driven a stick. Maybe if they did we could get a few converts. I will drive one until I cant push a clutch anymore, 85 or so maybe LOL!!

[ZanatWork]

The main reason that I enjoy manual transmissions is the direct engagement, which is lacking in every "flappy paddle" car I've driven. I'm well aware that those transmissions are a bit faster, but they don't give me the same satisfaction...so it's hard to justify spending thousands on those vehicles.

[jpd80]

There wouldn't be too many manual transmissions around that are capable of handling that much power and torque.

 

Not saying that's and excuse for not providing a manual option, just a reality that the gearbox is going to be expensive

and probably limited supply volume....Camaro ZL1 1LE has one so they are available.

[fordmantpw]

Actually, the autoshift units used in tractors that he was talking about are much closer to a DCT than a typical torque converter automatic.

Yes, I know that and think those are basically automated manuals like the DCT. I was talking about his points of driving the automatic on the track and his buddies converting autos to manuals.

[351cid]

Yes, I know that and think those are basically automated manuals like the DCT. I was talking about his points of driving the automatic on the track and his buddies converting autos to manuals.

Talked to my buddy today to confirm my comments. He's a big Chebbie guy. He confirmed that what I said was, indeed, accurate. He started with a R200, moved to a highly modified 4L60, then to the T56.

 

He knows two guys that have ZL1 Camaros. They have a 10 speed auto. He confirmed that the guys are having to learn how to drive these cars...but, basically, a monkey can be fast with them. He also related that there was mumbling from both owners about delayed shifts (up & down) in some scenarios. One caused the driver to spin out.

 

He will talk to me more about it when he gets to do some seat time in one of them. He won't run their cars full balls, but he'll breath on it.

 

Are y'all sure the GT500 tranny will be DCT? Is the one in the ZL1 DCT? I would assume the GT500 would be getting the same tranny since Ford & GM did a development deal. I can't see Ford developing a specific tranny for a low production car... but, I could be wrong.

[Sevensecondsuv]

There wouldn't be too many manual transmissions around that are capable of handling that much power and torque.

 

Not saying that's and excuse for not providing a manual option, just a reality that the gearbox is going to be expensive

and probably limited supply volume....Camaro ZL1 1LE has one so they are available.

That'd be the TR6060 (in oem lingo) or "T-56 Magnum" in Tremec aftermarket lingo (not to be confused with the original T-56 which it shares very little with). It's the one that's been used in the GT-350 GT-500, GT (the 05/06 version), Corvette, CTS-V and most of the recent Cameros. I think just this year Ford switched the the regular GT mustang from the Getrag MT-82 to the Tremec TR6060 due to complaints about the MT-82.

 

Tremec rates the TR6060/T-56 Magnum at 700 ft-lbs continuous in up to a 4000 lb vehicle I think.

 

And yes, they are expensive. Tremec gets about $3000 for an aftermarket box without a bellhousing, shifter, clutch, or driveshaft yoke.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Sevensecondsuv

[Sevensecondsuv]

The main reason that I enjoy manual transmissions is the direct engagement, which is lacking in every "flappy paddle" car I've driven. I'm well aware that those transmissions are a bit faster, but they don't give me the same satisfaction...so it's hard to justify spending thousands on those vehicles.

^This!

 

I've driven the paddle shift cars. They're just not as fun. The main point of the GT-500 is fun, so it makes sense a lot of people would want the regular manual.

[351cid]

^This!

 

I've driven the paddle shift cars. They're just not as fun. The main point of the GT-500 is fun, so it makes sense a lot of people would want the regular manual.

This is what Ford says you want & need...and you WILL like it.

[351cid]

It makes good business sense

[jpd80]

That'd be the TR6060 (in oem lingo) or "T-56 Magnum" in Tremec aftermarket lingo (not to be confused with the original T-56 which it shares very little with). It's the one that's been used in the GT-350 GT-500, GT (the 05/06 version), Corvette, CTS-V and most of the recent Cameros. I think just this year Ford switched the the regular GT mustang from the Getrag MT-82 to the Tremec TR6060 due to complaints about the MT-82.

 

Tremec rates the TR6060/T-56 Magnum at 700 ft-lbs continuous in up to a 4000 lb vehicle I think.

 

And yes, they are expensive. Tremec gets about $3000 for an aftermarket box without a bellhousing, shifter, clutch, or driveshaft yoke.

And since Ford already uses the TR6060 in GT Mustang, a lot of the engineering and parts is already done.

[SoonerLS]

Are y'all sure the GT500 tranny will be DCT? Is the one in the ZL1 DCT? I would assume the GT500 would be getting the same tranny since Ford & GM did a development deal. I can't see Ford developing a specific tranny for a low production car... but, I could be wrong.

You mean like the DCT in the GT?

 

And it's not like they'd have to develop a DCT for the GT; they could just buy one. It's not like there aren't companies out there already making them...

[jpd80]

Just an observation,

Of 17,800 Camaros in stock only about 940 are ZL1s and of those, 607 are automatics, the rest are manuals.

Knowing that there is a GT500 and a GT500R maybe some details are being held back at the moment.

Edited May 19, 2018 by jpd80

[akirby]

Camaro still uses the 10 speed auto. It seems to perform pretty well on the track even in manual mode but it’s not going to outperform a DCT.

[akirby]

No the reason people like manuals is the control. I want to decide the gear AND interact with the car. Yes you can control the shifts with the paddles but no matter how superior in every other way they may be the feeling will never be the same. That is what people who don't care about that interaction will never get or care about.

 

The main reason that I enjoy manual transmissions is the direct engagement, which is lacking in every "flappy paddle" car I've driven. I'm well aware that those transmissions are a bit faster, but they don't give me the same satisfaction...so it's hard to justify spending thousands on those vehicles.

You’re just confirming what I already said - it’s a subjective preference for manuals. And there’s nothing wrong with that at all!!! I get it.

 

I don’t blame anyone for WANTING a manual. But that doesn’t mean a DCT is inferior. Objectively it will be faster. Subjectively it’s simply a different experience.

[sullynd]

maybe some details are being held back at the moment.

Arent ALL details being held back at the moment? Did I miss an announcement?

 

Unless Im mistaken

Automatic: Speculation

No Manual: Speculation

10 Speed: Speculation

DCT: Speculation

Over-reaction: Typical BON

[fuzzymoomoo]

Arent ALL details being held back at the moment? Did I miss an announcement?

 

Unless Im mistaken

Automatic: Speculation

No Manual: Speculation

10 Speed: Speculation

DCT: Speculation

Over-reaction: Typical BON

except if you go back to my original post, I was told there is no manual option by a member of launch team at FRAP. I believe every word that person said. Its someone I worked with very closely during the launch of the Continental.

[akirby]

What gets me is I bet the majority of the naysayers have never driven a stick. Maybe if they did we could get a few converts.

Manuals I’ve personally owned:

 

81 Accord

80 Escort

86 Integra

90 Ranger

95 Ranger

 

DCTs I’ve driven (all on a track)

Porsche 911 Turbo

Porsche 911 GT3

Ferrari 458

Audi A8

 

 

I plan to buy a sports car at some point in the next few years. A few years ago I was dead set on a manual. I enjoy shifting gears. After driving the DCTs in auto mode and seeing how they respond and experiencing the new 10 speed auto in my F150, I’m 50/50.

 

If I get a Mustang GT I’d say I’m 60/40 for the manual right now. But if it’s a Boxster I’m leaning towards the PDK.

 

I don’t think Ford will have any trouble selling every GT500 they can make with a DCT and it should be faster to boot. That’s the bottom line. Manual aficionados still have the GT350. Or buy a Mustang GT and slap a supercharger on it for 700 hp. And we all know that very few of the “manual only” crowd would actually buy a brand new GT500.

[akirby]

Arent ALL details being held back at the moment? Did I miss an announcement?

Unless Im mistaken

Automatic: Speculation

No Manual: Speculation

10 Speed: Speculation

DCT: Speculation

Over-reaction: Typical BON

Others in this thread seem to confirm a DCT and/or no manual which means they have some insider knowledge. I wouldn’t call that speculation per se.

[fordmantpw]

Talked to my buddy today to confirm my comments. He's a big Chebbie guy. He confirmed that what I said was, indeed, accurate. He started with a R200, moved to a highly modified 4L60, then to the T56.

 

He knows two guys that have ZL1 Camaros. They have a 10 speed auto. He confirmed that the guys are having to learn how to drive these cars...but, basically, a monkey can be fast with them. He also related that there was mumbling from both owners about delayed shifts (up & down) in some scenarios. One caused the driver to spin out.

 

He will talk to me more about it when he gets to do some seat time in one of them. He won't run their cars full balls, but he'll breath on it.

 

Are y'all sure the GT500 tranny will be DCT? Is the one in the ZL1 DCT? I would assume the GT500 would be getting the same tranny since Ford & GM did a development deal. I can't see Ford developing a specific tranny for a low production car... but, I could be wrong.

 

The 10 speed in the ZL1 is the same auto used in the Silverado, as well as the same basic design as the one Ford uses in the F150, Mustang, Ranger, et. al.

 

The DCT wouldn't be a Ford-developed one, but one they purchase from someone else, possibly the same one (maybe beefed up for the extra HP and torque) used in the GT.

[blwnsmoke]

except if you go back to my original post, I was told there is no manual option by a member of launch team at FRAP. I believe every word that person said. Its someone I worked with very closely during the launch of the Continental.

I am assuming the testing of the manual didn't go well then because there was a gt500 roaming around Dearborn with a manual. It was posted online in a video.