silvrsvt Posted April 25, 2018 Author Share Posted April 25, 2018 Here's a thought I had- If the Fiesta, Focus and Fusion are so unprofitable-how is Ford making money on the Mustang? Is it really that profitable for what it is? Given how harsh they are being to car based products (most likely due to low returns on them), makes me really wonder-are they keeping it because its the status symbol for the company (outside the F-series) or is it actually that profitable? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) Weakness in China due to: 1. Chinese brands are serious threat 2. Ford products are old (we are too slow on model refresh) 3. Currency risk (RMB appreciation) 4. Sales channel restructuring - bring all Ford brands (Chang'an Ford, Jiangling Ford, imported Ford) under one marketing and product team 5. Zotye Ford is key to growth Edited April 25, 2018 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 The real issue is, can Ford NA quickly transition back to some of the discontinued products if demand shifts ? Personally, not having a mid-sized or full-sized sedan just seems "wrong" ! I still say there is a niche for "stretched" Lincoln MKS ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) Ford has said that with the increasing diversity of affordable and efficient Crossovers, there is no viable scenario in which people will want to revert back to sedans. So it's safe to get out of that business permanently assuming you have a diverstified utility portfolio, which Ford doesn't have currently. However, the Focus Active is a good start and somewhat unique in the market right now. It's also a matter of profitability, small cars and sedans are loosing money and it's not a business they want for obvious reasons. Edited April 25, 2018 by Assimilator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I don't like being forced into a CUV / SUV. I'll shop elsewhere if this is the case, and I've had Ford cars all my life and I'm 65. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) From the Automotive News article. Main takeaway, most Lincoln products lose money. "Shanks said small cars and "most Lincoln products" are among those losing money. Ford officials already signaled that some cars would be removed from the portfolio as consumers gravitate toward far more profitable pickups, SUVs and crossovers. He said the Lincoln brand as a whole is not in danger but noted that it lost money in China because it is in ramp-up mode there after being introduced in 2014. While Ford didn’t mention them, analysts say the future of the Lincoln Continental and MKZ sedans, which share platforms with many of the Ford cars slatted to be scrapped, also remain in doubt. Shanks suggested that Ford could reduce investment in certain geographic regions or exit them completely if it did not see adequate returns on the horizon. That echoes the strategy General Motors has employed in selling its European business and abandoning several other countries, including Russia." http://www.autonews.com/article/20180425/OEM/180429854/ford-nearly-doubles-cost-cutting-plans-earnings Edited April 25, 2018 by mackinaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildosvt Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 What did the big guy running the show say about the current model line up? Hackett... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang84isu Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I'm not a crossover buyer, so Ford is basically telling me they no longer want my business. Dumb and shortsighted. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted April 25, 2018 Author Share Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) I'm not a crossover buyer, so Ford is basically telling me they no longer want my business. Dumb and shortsighted. But the market is trending that way to people who want to buy them. Lots of people bought personal coupes/Vans in the 1970s and that market has disappeared. have to remember, its not all about you... Edited April 25, 2018 by silvrsvt 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I think the real burning question becomes: is Ford giving itself enough resilience to make other changes if this move proves costly?I don't claim to know the answer...but I am having flashbacks of the many years where Ford had so many intriguing vehicles in Europe and Australia while keeping things dumb/obsolete over here.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I don't like being forced into a CUV / SUV. I'll shop elsewhere if this is the case, and I've had Ford cars all my life and I'm 65. I dont blame you man. A-plan can only go so far to keep me loyal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Man, I love my ST. Guess have to go to GM and FCA for a next car purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang84isu Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 But the market is trending that way to people who want to buy them. Lots of people bought personal coupes/Vans in the 1970s and that market has disappeared. have to remember, its not all about you... Not just me, but also the 5 million other people that bought sedans last year. Even if the sedan market is shrinking, walking away from it completely is a mistake. All those potential sales will go to competitors. Not everyone wants the high center of gravity, extra weight, or extra cost associated with SUVs. This is Ford overreacting like it always does, and this is why my shares have been dead money since 2014. Ford was wrong on the compact/midsize pickup market, and I have a feeling they will be wrong on this as well. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itguy09 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Here's a thought I had- If the Fiesta, Focus and Fusion are so unprofitable-how is Ford making money on the Mustang? Is it really that profitable for what it is? Given how harsh they are being to car based products (most likely due to low returns on them), makes me really wonder-are they keeping it because its the status symbol for the company (outside the F-series) or is it actually that profitable? The powertrain costs are shared with the F150 (Engine, transmission) and, selling near 100k a year make it profitable for them. Not to mention it's something that gets people in the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevensecondsuv Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 To all you Fiesta/Fusion/Taurus fans: Welcome to our world! - Your friends in the Panther, Ranger, Excursion mafias! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 The powertrain costs are shared with the F150 (Engine, transmission) and, selling near 100k a year make it profitable for them. Not to mention it's something that gets people in the door. The also VERY carefully control daily production coming out of FRAP. They build to a number every single shift, and they stop the line once that number is reached. Every other plant 95% of the time its build as many as they can by shift end. They have an ideal number but they wont stop if its exceeded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) Im not sure how I feel about this. Taurus and fiesta should definitely go. The focus active looks good, but if thats going to be the only model here, just call it the focus and drop active from the name. Im sure the active costs a bit more then a regular focus so that might push some customers away. Really surprised about the fusion. I know its been rumored for a while but its one of the better selling vehicles in its class and I see them everywhere. A redesign and better gas mileage would have helped it I have to believe. The ev part was interesting. They only mentioned a performance suv ev. Wouldnt you want your ev to be a vehicle that gets good range and is lighter than what an suv would be? Is Lincoln going to be an suv only brand? Seems hard to justify the mkz and continental if they arent sharing parts with their ford counterpart. Seeing how slowly ford reacted with the ranger, I have no doubt they will react just as slowly if they want to bring cars back. Edited April 26, 2018 by T-dubz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) Jim Farley said on the earnings call that with each crossover update, Ford will look to diversify the body styles to make up for the loss of sedans. If you have been paying attention, it means we will get lots of new kinds of vehicles... some may even have a trunk but they won't look like Fusion today. If I had to guess, starting with Escape and Explorer, we will probably see two or three derivatives for each introduced after the "regular" one. For Escape it seems obvious we will probably end up with a fastback coupe and a LWB 7 seat version. For Explorer, I think fastback coupe should be on the list and maybe a trunked version call Explorer Sporttrac... I'm kidding... maybe Edited April 26, 2018 by bzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 What does this mean for the police market? I mean most police vehicles I see are Tahoes and explorers now anyways but Im sure theres a few departments that still want cars 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) Guys. This is basically why I don't come around here any more. I caught this show the first time around: https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/Ford2001.shtml I don't need to see it again, I've already seen the ending. Not trying to be anti-social though. I'm on twitter at https://twitter.com/RichAJensenand Instagram at: Rich.Jensen Edited April 26, 2018 by RichardJensen 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Jim Farley said on the earnings call that with each crossover update, Ford will look to diversify the body styles to make up for the loss of sedans. If you have been paying attention, it means we will get lots of new kinds of vehicles... some may even have a trunk but they won't look like Fusion today. If I had to guess, starting with Escape and Explorer, we will probably see two or three derivatives for each introduced after the "regular" one. For Escape it seems obvious we will probably end up with a fastback coupe and a LWB 7 seat version. For Explorer, I think fastback coupe should be on the list and maybe a trunked version call Explorer Sporttrac... I'm kidding... maybe I always liked the lincoln navicross concept from back in the day. Its similar to what you are describing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Just saw in Detroit News This has been verified by Ford. So all the fake news sights were partially correct. Two cars Mustang Focus Active-which to me is the right Focis for sure Could care less about Taurus or Fiesta but Fusion will be missed only because at one time a few years ago it was the best mid size sedan even beating Camry and Accord. Thats tough to see them just give up on it. Probably right decision at this point though. What I would love to check out is how many people thought FCA is fucking crazy to exit the car business and Ford would never do that. Boy give FCA tons of credit for getting out in front of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) Look, if Focus Active is a success, there is nothing stopping Ford from selling a Fusion Active (whether it continues with the Fusion name or not)... which is basically going to be an Edge with a fastback - imagine Edge with 3 different rear ends... one like the existing Mondeo hatchback, one like the existing 5 seat Edge, and one like the existing 7 seat Edge. So this is basically what Farley was trying to say in the earnings call but he didn't spell it out exactly. Another thing to remember here... I'll bet Ford will try to certify Focus Active as a SUV instead of a car. This will lower the light truck CAFE number for Ford. Look at Suburu XV Crosstrek and Outback... those are the kind of cars that Ford will probably want to sell. They are classified as trucks (SUVs). So a hypothetical Fusion Active will be a truck for EPA and CAFE purpose but it may still be seen as more car than SUV. Hackett also announced there will be a major product briefing in September which will give more clear direction on new products. Edited April 26, 2018 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Look, if Focus Active is a success, there is nothing stopping Ford from selling a Fusion Active (whether it continues with the Fusion name or not)... which is basically going to be an Edge with a fastback. So this is basically what Farley was trying to say in the earnings call but he didn't spell it out exactly. Hackett also announced there will be a major product briefing in September which will give more clear direction on new products. Have no doubt Focus Active is going to be a success. IMO Fusion is dead and so is the name. I do like the variety of models. Not everyone wants the same thing. Give them different options and geared towards different groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 I will absolutely not give FCA credit. They backed out of the segment due to their own inability to be competitive. They got lucky. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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