Ford refuses to use 9-speed GM's automatic transmission

[RadicalX]

On April 15, 2013, Ford and General Motors signed an agreement to jointly use automatic transmissions developed by the two automakers. The Blue Ovals part of the deal was to share its own 10-speed gearbox catering rear-wheel-drive cars with GM and in return have access to a 9-speed box to be used in FWD models.

 

Check out models using the nine-speed auto:

 

2017 Chevy Malibu | Why Buy?

Refreshed 2019 Buick Envision Adds Nine-Speed Automatic

However, the Hydra-Matic 9T50 seen here and originally introduced on Chevy models with the 2017 Malibu, 2017 Cruze Diesel, and the 2018 Equinox will not find its way inside a Ford. Instead, the company has opted to use an eight-speed box for models like the Edge and the MKX-replacing Lincoln Nautilus. Why the change of heart? Because Ford believes GMs transmission is not efficient enough to offset the extra weight commanded by the additional gear. Not only that, but it also argues that it doesnt justify the increased cost required to adapt it for the Ford models.

 

Fords gearbox is part of a series of three eight-speed transmissions, with one being based on GMs nine-speed and another based on a six-speed co-developed with GM to be used on sportier models like the V6-powered Nautilus and the Edge ST. Theres also a third version for smaller cars featuring engines generating a lower amount of torque.

 

Interestingly, the report goes on to mention Fords decision to use an eight-speed instead of a nine-speed was actually made before General Motors began implementing it on the production cars mentioned above. While final fuel economy numbers are not available at the moment of writing for the cars using Fords eight-speed, the company is confident it will be able to match the efficiency of GMs nine-speed. The Transit Connect and Wagon models fitted with the new turbodiesel 1.5-liter EcoBlue engine are both estimated to return 30 miles per gallon on the highway.

 

 

https://www.motor1.com/news/239934/ford-refuses-use-gm-automatic-transmission/

[akirby]

I'll wait for a better source. I'm betting all 3 are based on the same joint design just with beefier internals based on the application - like the 6F15, 6F35, 6F50, 6F55.

[silvrsvt]

I'll wait for a better source. I'm betting all 3 are based on the same joint design just with beefier internals based on the application - like the 6F15, 6F35, 6F50, 6F55.

 

 

In all seriousness, how much can one extra gear add weight wise?

 

Just taking a look at the 9T50 press releases, the improvement in MPGs is small like 1 MPG highway or 3% over the current 6 speed.

[mackinaw]

I'll wait for a better source. I'm betting all 3 are based on the same joint design just with beefier internals based on the application - like the 6F15, 6F35, 6F50, 6F55.

 

Automotive News also has an article on this:

 

http://www.autonews.com/article/20180423/OEM01/180429934/ford-gm-9-speed-transmission

[akirby]

I can't read that article (exceeded my free limit apparently), but I'm sure it's all based on the same (potentially wrong) report.

[silvrsvt]

I wonder truly how much the 6F55 is being used in lets call it the 8F55 in the Edge Sport and Nautilus...doesn't seem to make much sense to add two more gears to an existing transmission (which seems to be a big expense development wise), when you already have a 8/9 Speed transmission that you can use already.

[fuzzymoomoo]

I can't read that article (exceeded my free limit apparently), but I'm sure it's all based on the same (potentially wrong) report.

Clear your cache/cookies

[fordmantpw]

I wonder truly how much the 6F55 is being used in lets call it the 8F55 in the Edge Sport and Nautilus...doesn't seem to make much sense to add two more gears to an existing transmission (which seems to be a big expense development wise), when you already have a 8/9 Speed transmission that you can use already.

 

Yeah, doesn't make sense to have 3 different transmissions that aren't really related. I would think it would be much more cost effective to have 3 transmissions (for different power/torque levels) based on one core design.

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

Yeah, doesn't make sense to have 3 different transmissions that aren't really related. I would think it would be much more cost effective to have 3 transmissions (for different power/torque levels) based on one core design.

I think theyre all related. Most, if not all variations will be built at Livonia Transmission starting this summer with whichever version is going into the Edge And Nautilus.

[twintornados]

If I remember it correctly, Ford had the option of utilizing the transmission as a 9 speed but, for durability purposes opted for the 8 speed version instead....I am sure with final drive changes, the mileage differences will be negligible.

[fordmantpw]

I think theyre all related. Most, if not all variations will be built at Livonia Transmission starting this summer with whichever version is going into the Edge And Nautilus.

 

I agree, which is why I doubt the validity of the articles. It wouldn't make sense to use the tranny from GM (as an 8-speed) and then upgrade the existing 6-speed to an 8-speed for use in higher powered vehicles.

[351cid]

 

Yeah, doesn't make sense to have 3 different transmissions that aren't really related. I would think it would be much more cost effective to have 3 transmissions (for different power/torque levels) based on one core design.

You mean like the C-4, C-6, and FMX of yore? This is Ford we're talking about here....in a ten year span they had three different engines that equaled 352 cubic inches. 352 FE series, 351 Windsor (also 352 cubes), and 351 Cleveland (also 352 cubes as well). Then they took a tall deck 400 Cleveland engine and made yet a fourth (351M; and as you guessed...352 cu in)

 

So....if you say "It's a 351/ auto car" you have several variations of what combo you have.

 

I realize this was Ford of the 1960's & 70's, but as recently as the production of the 4.6L; which had two different bell housing designs. So three 8 speed transmissions does not surprise me.

[silvrsvt]

 

I realize this was Ford of the 1960's & 70's, but as recently as the production of the 4.6L; which had two different bell housing designs. So three 8 speed transmissions does not surprise me.

 

But also that can be explained by FWD or RWD application

[92merc]

The article I read made it sound like Ford was ditching the whole transmission. From what I've heard here, they've just dropped a gear out. Durability and no real gains mpg wise vs. 9 speeds. So typical reporting, leaving out the good details.

[351cid]

 

But also that can be explained by FWD or RWD application

 

Actually, I just found info that says the early MOD's (1991-early 1993) used the Windsor bolt pattern. Then they were swapped to the "Modular" bolt pattern which works with 4.6, 5.4, 6.8, & 6.0L. This is my understanding.

 

My point is; as much as I love Ford & prefer working on them over the other makes, they have a history of changing things mid stream. Sometimes (I'm sure its not), it seems they do it just to confuse people. Example; the 351M and 400 blocks used the 385 series bellhousing....except a small run of 400's in 73 that were used in passenger cars. They used the small block bolt pattern.

[akirby]

 

Actually, I just found info that says the early MOD's (1991-early 1993) used the Windsor bolt pattern. Then they were swapped to the "Modular" bolt pattern which works with 4.6, 5.4, 6.8, & 6.0L. This is my understanding.

 

My point is; as much as I love Ford & prefer working on them over the other makes, they have a history of changing things mid stream. Sometimes (I'm sure its not), it seems they do it just to confuse people. Example; the 351M and 400 blocks used the 385 series bellhousing....except a small run of 400's in 73 that were used in passenger cars. They used the small block bolt pattern.

 

 

My experience is most things like that are the result of a series of events or circumstances that made sense at the time for reasons that wouldn't be obvious to consumers.

 

I've run into this with software many times where a series of sometimes completely unrelated decisions force you to do something that makes no sense at face value. But if you follow each decision along the way they all make sense.

[akirby]

And Ford is so cost conscious now it would be surprising if they didn't share the new 8/9 speed design as much as possible. And if it can't handle all those different workloads then the design or requirements were flawed.

[Assimilator]

This is all very surprising and confusing. So there are two different 8-Speeds going into the Edge/Nautilus, one based on the old 6-Speed and another based on the newer 9-speed? One transmission is better suited to performance than the other? As speculated, it sounds like 9-Speed turned out not to be a great fit for Ford's torquey boosted engines compared to the weak space that GM is working with. Sounds like quite a mess and not as elegantly solved as I had assumed, maybe they just couldn't solve it cost effectively under one umbrella.

 

Gear count really isn't a magic bullet, it really comes down to how well you've tuned the software for smooth shifts and efficiency. Ford has done a pretty good job recently by updating the 6-Speeds for much smoother operation, although efficiency has been another problem altogether because of the way people drive EcoBoost engine.

 

The 10-Speed in my new F-150 doesn't feel any smoother than the 6-Speed in my MKX with the same engine, I'm not expecting huge user-facing differences but every incremental improvement helps.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Assimilator

[jpd80]

If you think about the time line of development, it's likely that the eight speed auto was engineered first

and then GM continued the development to the 9-speed auto it wanted.

 

Perhaps Ford just saw the 8-speed as value with less cost and slightly less complexity.

Maybe wider use of Ecoboost in FWD/AWD played a part in that decision,

[rmc523]

This is all very surprising and confusing. So there are two different 8-Speeds going into the Edge/Nautilus, one based on the old 6-Speed and another based on the newer 9-speed? One transmission is better suited to performance than the other? As speculated, it sounds like 9-Speed turned out not to be a great fit for Ford's torquey boosted engines compared to the weak space that GM is working with. Sounds like quite a mess and not as elegantly solved as I had assumed, maybe they just couldn't solve it cost effectively under one umbrella.

 

Gear count really isn't a magic bullet, it really comes down to how well you've tuned the software for smooth shifts and efficiency. Ford has done a pretty good job recently by updating the 6-Speeds for much smoother operation, although efficiency has been another problem altogether because of the way people drive EcoBoost engine.

 

The 10-Speed in my new F-150 doesn't feel any smoother than the 6-Speed in my MKX with the same engine, I'm not expecting huge user-facing differences but every incremental improvement helps.

 

I find it hard to believe that they'd cut down the 9 speed to an 8 speed for durability, only to then develop ANOTHER 8 speed based on an old 6-speed design.

[akirby]

This is all speculation until Ford releases more info or we get actual insider info to confirm it. I find it hard to believe at this point.

 

 

Also - the 10 speed in my 2018 F150 is butter smooth. Then again so is the 6 speed in my MKX.

[jcartwright99]

 

I find it hard to believe that they'd cut down the 9 speed to an 8 speed for durability, only to then develop ANOTHER 8 speed based on an old 6-speed design

 

 

I agree. Someone in the "know" should clear that up. One would hope that the development of the joint 8/9 speed transmission was actually beneficial to Ford.

[fuzzymoomoo]

This is all speculation until Ford releases more info or we get actual insider info to confirm it. I find it hard to believe at this point.

 

 

Also - the 10 speed in my 2018 F150 is butter smooth. Then again so is the 6 speed in my MKX.

you know very well that BORG Assimilator has obscenely high standards.

[akirby]

you know very well that BORG Assimilator has obscenely high standards.

 

Only on paper. He still buys them then complains incessantly. Then buys another one.

[brucelinc]

Have we ever learned how much torque the GM 9 speed can handle? Is it possible that to beef up the gears and bearings to handle high torque it was necessary to convert the gearbox to an 8 speed? Or is it possible that it simply cannot be modified to handle higher loads and it was more effective to add speeds to the 6F? GMs only high powered front driver is the XTS and it doesn't use the 9 speed.