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PSA is Pissed at GM, Demands Refund

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How did they not know that was coming when they bought it. Unless GM covered it up, they should've.

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How did they not know that was coming when they bought it. Unless GM covered it up, they should've.

How would GM cover up lack of product development?

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Im sorry, but unless there was some outright fraud I would say shame on PSA for not completing their due diligence.

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How would GM cover up lack of product development?

 

That's my point - if they didn't figure that out before purchasing, that's their fault.

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Agreed.

That's my point - if they didn't figure that out before purchasing, that's their fault.

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It all comes down to whether GM hid something they knew about and didn't disclose or whether PSA just missed it during due diligence. I doubt GM did anything that's legally actionable.

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From the article- The said there was changes in regulations at the last minute

 

 


Sources close to the issue tell Reuters that GM underestimated the public’s switch away from diesel-powered cars in its calculations. It also relied heavily on sales of the all-electric Opel Ampera-e (Chevrolet Bolt) to meet its emissions targets. The looming regulation change punishes each car in an automaker’s fleet for every extra gram of carbon dioxide it spews per kilometer, to the tune of $113 per vehicle. A crushing load of fines wouldn’t take long to pile up.

 

“People who had worked on the closing realized quite quickly that there were these big discrepancies,” one PSA source said. “They had been swept under the rug.”

 

Another source said that PSA stood to lose over $11,000 for each Ampera-e sold, making the company’s reliance on that one car doubly risky.

 

Sounds like GM might have been glossing over those issues

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The fact that they haven't yet filed a lawsuit tells me they probably had access to the information during due diligence but overlooked it. Glossed over and swept under the rug aren't usually legally actionable. Or they knew about it but thought they would have more time to fix it.

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From the article- The said there was changes in regulations at the last minute

 

 

 

Sounds like GM might have been glossing over those issues

Sorry but that falls under due diligence. PSA could have easily seen that GM was going to use Ampera-e to gain credits. PSA just realized it got a steaming pile of poo and is trying everything to save face, they want to close plants and streamline operations and this way they can make GM look bad and it is their fault. One of GM's biggest mistake in Bankruptcy was keeping Opel and closing Pontiac.

 

And lets be honest no one in Europe saw the switch away from Diesel as well as the shift to SUVs. VW managed to kill a large portion of the diesel market worldwide in about 2 weeks.

 

They thought they were smarter than GM and could easily make it profitable, that they were smarter than anyone and it would be an easy fix for their management. It was very French of them.

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Sorry but that falls under due diligence. PSA could have easily seen that GM was going to use Ampera-e to gain credits. PSA just realized it got a steaming pile of poo and is trying everything to save face, they want to close plants and streamline operations and this way they can make GM look bad and it is their fault. One of GM's biggest mistake in Bankruptcy was keeping Opel and closing Pontiac.

 

And lets be honest no one in Europe saw the switch away from Diesel as well as the shift to SUVs. VW managed to kill a large portion of the diesel market worldwide in about 2 weeks.

 

They thought they were smarter than GM and could easily make it profitable, that they were smarter than anyone and it would be an easy fix for their management. It was very French of them.

 

 

Bingo.

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Sorry but that falls under due diligence. PSA could have easily seen that GM was going to use Ampera-e to gain credits. PSA just realized it got a steaming pile of poo and is trying everything to save face, they want to close plants and streamline operations and this way they can make GM look bad and it is their fault. One of GM's biggest mistake in Bankruptcy was keeping Opel and closing Pontiac.

 

And lets be honest no one in Europe saw the switch away from Diesel as well as the shift to SUVs. VW managed to kill a large portion of the diesel market worldwide in about 2 weeks.

 

They thought they were smarter than GM and could easily make it profitable, that they were smarter than anyone and it would be an easy fix for their management. It was very French of them.

 

Let's not pretend keeping Pontiac would've been any sort of good idea.

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If there was a last-minute change in the regulations, how is that GM's fault? GM management wasn't in charge of drafting and ratifying the regulations.

 

A big issue here is that this deal only works if there is considerable platform consolidation. That generally entails consolidation of facilities and layoffs of workers. That is hard to do in European countries.

 

And the French and German governments do not want the factory closures and layoffs to happen within their respective borders.

Edited by grbeck

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Let's not pretend keeping Pontiac would've been any sort of good idea.

When you look at where their customers went it would have been, it was assumed in metrics they would stay in the GM family, unlike Saturn which GM knew it would lose as customers. Problem is ex Pontiac customers also fled the GM. However management made the best decision they could at the time. If they did it today with the knowledge known; Buick would have been killed and what are Buick's today would be Pontiac.

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When you look at where their customers went it would have been, it was assumed in metrics they would stay in the GM family, unlike Saturn which GM knew it would lose as customers. Problem is ex Pontiac customers also fled the GM. However management made the best decision they could at the time. If they did it today with the knowledge known; Buick would have been killed and what are Buick's today would be Pontiac.

Even at the time I thought it was stupid to kill Pontiac and keep Buick.

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When you look at where their customers went it would have been, it was assumed in metrics they would stay in the GM family, unlike Saturn which GM knew it would lose as customers. Problem is ex Pontiac customers also fled the GM. However management made the best decision they could at the time. If they did it today with the knowledge known; Buick would have been killed and what are Buick's today would be Pontiac.

 

So you're saying the current crop of Buick products with a Pontiac badge would be doing better?

 

Buick was kept because of China, otherwise it would've been gone too.

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Buick was kept because of China - plain and simple.

 

Pontiac was the answer to a question nobody was asking. Anything that Pontiac could possible sell could sell just as well with a bow tie. Especially since Chevy already had Camaro and Corvette.

 

Buick could easily go away. Split the vehicles between Chevy and Cadillac.

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Buick could easily go away. Split the vehicles between Chevy and Cadillac.

not even that, just do the same thing Ford did when they got rid of Mercury, just make the top end Chevys nicer and give the additional R&D to Caddilac.

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So you're saying the current crop of Buick products with a Pontiac badge would be doing better?

 

Buick was kept because of China, otherwise it would've been gone too.

Absolutely, if the current crop of Buick's had Pontiac badges in the US sales probably would be double if not more. Buick could stay for China but in the US it should have died. Pontiac never had an issue selling to younger buyers, they were actually attracted to the brand. Buick has spent billions trying to find a market and appeal to younger buyer and it hasn't resonated. You can always sell an old person a young persons car, you can't sell a young person an old person car.

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Sounds like PSA is getting cold feet too late and realized what a bad deal they entered into. They have 5 divisions that occupy the same position in the market place. The brands dont offer different products like Jeep is for SUV's Fait are cars, nor do they step up in price like VW and GM. This is like Ford buying Dodge and Chrysler so they can sell Fusions and Escapes in 3 different brands.

 

The worst part about this is that Opel and Vauxhall have been declining for 20 years with no hope in sight!

 

PSA made a very stupid choice and will pay the price. They could have used the money to enter the American market and compete in a market where they at least have a chance to expand. They could have offered to build cars to sell in Chrysler's existing dealerships under their brand names to replace Dodge, or made an offer to Mitsubishi to buy out their dealer network and replace the Mitsubishi cars over the next few model years with their own. It would not take much to federalize their cars due to many of them sharing Opel platforms which make Buicks.

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Absolutely, if the current crop of Buick's had Pontiac badges in the US sales probably would be double if not more. Buick could stay for China but in the US it should have died. Pontiac never had an issue selling to younger buyers, they were actually attracted to the brand. Buick has spent billions trying to find a market and appeal to younger buyer and it hasn't resonated. You can always sell an old person a young persons car, you can't sell a young person an old person car.

Which Pontiac vehicles were successful? Not the G8/GTO. Not Solstice.

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Which Pontiac vehicles were successful? Not the G8/GTO. Not Solstice.

Come on man! Aztec! Vibe!

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Come on man! Aztec! Vibe!

The Vibe was better than the Venero, G6 Sold better than the Regal. The Aztec was just ugly but a redesign could have fixed that, it actually drove well. (and when you were driving it you weren't looking at it) Torrent sold well enough and the Grand Prix for as old as it was still sold decent. It's also hard to say if the Solstice and G8 would have been successful as the world financial markets imploded just as they were being launched. Keeping Buick is cheap, the only models made here is the Enclave, and Lacrosse in shared assembly. The rest are from China, Korea or Germany. I do wonder how much longer until the Regal is being brought in from China as well.

 

 

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PSA made a very stupid choice and will pay the price. They could have used the money to enter the American market and compete in a market where they at least have a chance to expand.

 

PSA Group actually entered the American market in April 2017 as a mobility services provider. They did a pilot U.S. launch of Free2Move in LA. This service aggregates car sharing and bicycle sharing providers. It expanded the service in October with a full launch in Seattle. https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/4/16418560/free2move-car-bike-sharing-app-aggregator-launches-in-us

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Remember the people who thought that PSA was getting a bargain and would quickly turn Opel around showing up GM?

PSA may eventually do that but definitely not with those GM legacy products....

 

It just confirms how different Ford and GM had become in Europe and ROW ......

Edited by jpd80

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