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GM to Exit EU - Sale of Opel to PSA


jasonj80

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I hope GM sells Opel and Vauxhall to PSA and gets out of that European money pit. Buick only needs one sedan (LaCrosse) and not the Regal (Insignia). I don't want GM selling Chevrolets in Europe either.

 

I hope GM does not buy anything from FCA. FCA has nothing GM needs. Ideally Chrysler should have gone out of business in 2009, but let Marchionne and the family that owns Fiat live with what they got.

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Meh, I think GM just gave up on Opel Vauxhall as just too hard, it can get engineering for Buick done via China

which has become a huge market for Buick btw, and one I'm sure will most likely be far more attractive to GM..

 

Also, I wonder if Ford's $1.2 Billon Pre-Tax result last year was the final nail in the coffin,

perhaps GM finally woke up and realized just how far behind the curve it really was

and just how much was still to do in Europe before it was ever going to see a profit..

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Car guys are going nuts, thinking Opel is a 'sacred cow', even though not making money and is just a "jobs program". Sure it's 80 years old, but has been loosing money for nearly the last 20. Some will say "but cant they figure it out?", well at this point, why bother?

 

And others say, "but GM needs them". No, it sounds like some just like to see pictures of them on internet and go "look at the cool German GM cars". Buick is selling more and more CUV's these days, and doesn't even need Regal or Verano anymore. Veranos were sold with huge discounts to former beige Century owners, thinking they should pay "Chevy prices for a Buick" as some kind of "entitlement". But they need to make money, not give cars away.

Edited by 630land
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I am skeptical of an FCA buy. Jeep is the only real value and I see it under attack by competitors.

GM is bringing back the Blazer and Ford the Bronco. Jeep may suffer.

Why would GM want to stay in Europe with Fiat?

 

Jeep has always been "under attack by competitors". Suzuki Samurai (1980s-1998)? Nissan Xterra (1999-2016)? Toyota FJ Cruiser (2006-2016)? (Old) Ford Bronco? Toyota Landcruiser and 4Runner are still around like always. Many have tried to compete with Jeep at their own game over the years. Few have succeeded.

 

Thing is, nobody cares about jeepin more than Jeep. Any competitor put on the market might be as good of a lifestyle vehicle, probably won't be cheaper, and won't have the brand image, name, and style that Jeep has spent the past several decades cultivating. I.E., Jeeps, jeepin, Jeep Jamborees, Jeep Safaris, Jeep roads, Jeep Wave, Jeep clubs, Jeep apparel... So why buy the knockoff when you can buy the real thing?

Edited by Mr.Quack.
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Thing is, nobody cares about jeepin more than Jeep. Any competitor put on the market might be as good of a lifestyle vehicle, probably won't be cheaper, and won't have the brand image, name, and style that Jeep has spent the past several decades cultivating. I.E., Jeeps, jeepin, Jeep Jamborees, Jeep Safaris, Jeep roads, Jeep Wave, Jeep clubs, Jeep apparel... So why buy the knockoff when you can buy the real thing?

 

Oddly enough the Wrangler has one of the worst ratings among car magazines as an everyday car, but yet it has a zealous following still.

 

IMO if someone can crack the daily driver part and still similar off road chops like the Wrangler, they'll pull buyers away. IMO I think that is what Ford is aiming for with Bronco. When have the Japanese actually had a successful (well recently) pickup lor off roader launch? The Tacoma is more or less the same thing as the Wrangler and is ripe for the taking.

 

Ford created the SUV market with the original Explorer, even though the Cherokee was around well before it (not sure when the 4 door hit the market though) but it couldn't compete with the Explorer in comfort. Even the Grand Cherokee still doesn't sell as well as the current Explorer, even though they admittedly are in different markets now.

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If GM intends to buy FCA then maybe they can rationalize it this way:

 

Drop the Chrysler brand and move Pacifica to Buick. Cut the Regal.

 

Move Ram back under the Dodge banner and move the vans to Chevy and drop the Nissan derived small van.

 

Discontinue selling Fiat and Alfa in the U. S.

Sell Alfa to VW.

 

Sell Maserati.

 

Drop Dodge cars and field a Jeep-Dodge truck and SUV brand.

 

Maybe that could make sense?

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Thing is, nobody cares about jeepin more than Jeep. Any competitor put on the market might be as good of a lifestyle vehicle, probably won't be cheaper, and won't have the brand image, name, and style that Jeep has spent the past several decades cultivating. I.E., Jeeps, jeepin, Jeep Jamborees, Jeep Safaris, Jeep roads, Jeep Wave, Jeep clubs, Jeep apparel... So why buy the knockoff when you can buy the real thing?

 

You absolutely nailed it.

 

I do give FCA credit for properly cultivating the Jeep brand. Jeep’s global sales have increased by 140% since 2008. That’s an amazing figure, anyway you look at it.

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Oddly enough the Wrangler has one of the worst ratings among car magazines as an everyday car, but yet it has a zealous following still.

 

IMO if someone can crack the daily driver part and still similar off road chops like the Wrangler, they'll pull buyers away. IMO I think that is what Ford is aiming for with Bronco. When have the Japanese actually had a successful (well recently) pickup lor off roader launch? The Tacoma is more or less the same thing as the Wrangler and is ripe for the taking.

 

Ford created the SUV market with the original Explorer, even though the Cherokee was around well before it (not sure when the 4 door hit the market though) but it couldn't compete with the Explorer in comfort. Even the Grand Cherokee still doesn't sell as well as the current Explorer, even though they admittedly are in different markets now.

Eh, from what I've seen Jeep products review pretty well these days. The modern Wrangler, with four doors, the Pentastar, a modern 6-speed transmission, and heavily upgraded interiors have come a long way from the 2007 model. They're perfectly liveable vehicles.

 

And I imagine most Wrangler buyers don't read or care what Road and Track says about the car. If they read a magazine it's probably Peterson's Off-road or something, which loves Wranglers. But the best adivertisement is the countless thousands of Wranglers you see with winches, big tires, light bars and no roof or doors driving around on the beach or crusing the town on a pleasant summers day. It looks like so much fun. Makes you want to buy one. Makes me want to buy one. Thats worth than any amount of magazine ink. Then you go on Craigslist or Autotrader and you see second hand Jeeps going for more than new ones. You see 1998 TJs going for $12,000. Supply and demand right there.

 

The FJ Cruiser and Xterra tried the exact play you advised the Bronco go for. They had better engines, drove better, quieter, better NVH, more fuel efficient, better towing, payload capacity, Nissan and Toyota reliability vs Jeep reliability...both are dead and gone while Jeep is switching to higher capacity factory for the Wrangler because they can't make enough of them.

 

I hope Ford knows something Toyota and Nissan didn't.

Edited by Mr.Quack.
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Regal is the best selling Buick by a long shot. There is no way GM will get rid of it. Some of you need to step away from the crazy train.

 

 

 

I think GM smells an opportunity to secure Jeep without the risk associated with a bankruptcy bidding war or unexpected government bailout.

 

Again, this is all based on my assumption that we're looking at an "Opel for Jeep" play by GM.

 

Yes, I can see this is how they will sell it to the board - get rid of Opel, raise some cash, and buy Jeep.

 

But reality is that they've just bought a bunch of under performing Italian brands. However, I guess there is something to be said about synergy in South America where GM and Fiat are both decent size players.

 

 

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Eh, from what I've seen Jeep products review pretty well these days. The modern Wrangler, with four doors, the Pentastar, a modern 6-speed transmission, and heavily upgraded interiors have come a long way from the 2007 model. They're perfectly liveable vehicles.

 

And I imagine most Wrangler buyers don't read or care what Road and Track says about the car. If they read a magazine it's probably Peterson's Off-road or something, which loves Wranglers. But the best adivertisement is the countless thousands of Wranglers you see with winches, big tires, light bars and no roof or doors driving around on the beach or crusing the town on a pleasant summers day. It looks like so much fun. Makes you want to buy one. Makes me want to buy one. Thats worth than any amount of magazine ink. Then you go on Craigslist or Autotrader and you see second hand Jeeps going for more than new ones. You see 1998 TJs going for $12,000. Supply and demand right there.

 

The FJ Cruiser and Xterra tried the exact play you advised the Bronco go for. They had better engines, drove better, quieter, better NVH, more fuel efficient, better towing, payload capacity, Nissan and Toyota reliability vs Jeep reliability...both are dead and gone while Jeep is switching to higher capacity factory for the Wrangler because they can't make enough of them.

 

I hope Ford knows something Toyota and Nissan didn't.

 

Xterra wasn't anything special in any sense. FJ Cruiser was just plain ugly.

 

Regal is the best selling Buick by a long shot. There is no way GM will get rid of it. Some of you need to step away from the crazy train.

 

 

 

Yes, I can see this is how they will sell it to the board - get rid of Opel, raise some cash, and buy Jeep.

 

But reality is that they've just bought a bunch of under performing Italian brands. However, I guess there is something to be said about synergy in South America where GM and Fiat are both decent size players.

 

 

 

Regal? The Encore sold 5 times as many vehicles as Regal in January. Regal has not been close to their best selling model in some time, if ever since its reintroduction.

 

It was their 5th (of 7) best-selling vehicle, and the two it's ahead of are the discontinued Verano and the Cascada.

Edited by rmc523
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The FJ Cruiser and Xterra tried the exact play you advised the Bronco go for. They had better engines, drove better, quieter, better NVH, more fuel efficient, better towing, payload capacity, Nissan and Toyota reliability vs Jeep reliability...both are dead and gone while Jeep is switching to higher capacity factory for the Wrangler because they can't make enough of them.

 

I hope Ford knows something Toyota and Nissan didn't.

 

 

We spent a few weeks out west last May. Made a loop from Albuquerque to Las Vegas to Zion to the Grand Canyon, then back to Albuquerque. I was amazed at the amount of original Bronco’s (66 - 77) we saw running around the desert. All were lovingly restored with big tires, light bars, etc. People still love this thing. Ford definitely has an opportunity here. We’ll see what they do with it.

Edited by mackinaw
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Regal? The Encore sold 5 times as many vehicles as Regal in January. Regal has not been close to their best selling model in some time, if ever since its reintroduction.

 

It was their 5th (of 7) best-selling vehicle, and the two it's ahead of are the discontinued Verano and the Cascada.

 

GM sold over 1 million Buick in China last year and Regal was the 2nd best selling model there. You want to try again?

Edited by bzcat
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Regal is the best selling Buick by a long shot. There is no way GM will get rid of it. Some of you need to step away from the crazy train.

 

 

I think you're confused. Regal is typically near the bottom of their sales figures. These days, it's Encore and Enclave that are carrying the weight for them.

 

The Cruze-based Verano has been discontinued.

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OK, let's see if GM gets this deal done and then approaches Sergio to play, "Let's make a deal.."

 

I'm sure that Sergio is waiting for the other shoe to drop and get that phone call....

 

My expectation is that they've already made that phone call to Sergio.

 

BTW:

 

To support my inference, I was looking for evidence that Sergio's been keeping his mouth shut lately.

 

In so doing, I came across the tags page from HuffPo.

 

And thereupon I came across this comment:

 

"Marchionne is one of the most complete CEOs I have ever come across in 25 years of covering business and the auto industry."

 

Who wrote that?

 

David Kiley.

 

It's amazing that a guy can spend as much time as he has writing about the auto industry without apparently learning a thing about it.

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Yes, I noticed that Sergio has been silent on that front lately, it seems like the urgency to find a partner is gone...

 

A complete CEO wouldn't need to have the equivalent of a dummy spit in public glare because no one would

make a deal with FCA, that conversation would be kept out of sight of media and investors.

 

So no, Sergiois is more of an opportunist prone to letting his emotions and sentiments lead him.

Or is he just a conduit for the frustrations of the Agnelli family...

Edited by jpd80
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Jeep has always been "under attack by competitors". Suzuki Samurai (1980s-1998)? Nissan Xterra (1999-2016)? Toyota FJ Cruiser (2006-2016)? (Old) Ford Bronco? Toyota Landcruiser and 4Runner are still around like always. Many have tried to compete with Jeep at their own game over the years. Few have succeeded.

 

None of those recent competitors you mention had the same form factor that the Wrangler has. In my opinion it is an offroad convertible and that is what sells it. The vast majority do not see dirt in any significant way. Not that there aren't people who use their Jeeps for serious or casual offroad, but I'm willing to bet most don't.

 

If the Bronco is to be successful it needs to bare a similar form as a Wrangler otherwise it's just another SUV. The Bronco has offroad histoRy behind it so it can be legit, and not a poser.

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If Gm had ben anyways serious about elevating the perception of Opel and Vauxhall in Europe,

it would have commissioned Opel to develop the Alpha platform for cars and Utilities

and not locked it up with Cadillac and Camaro.

 

That to me was the defining moment when i realized that GM chasing after BMW with Cadillac

was the kind of nonsense that would ultimately cost Opel, Vauxhall and Buick dearly or worse, kill them.

 

Could you imagine Opel Vauxhall with the equivalent of 3 and 5 series cars as well as an X3 and X5 competitor.

I'd say, that was a huge missed opportunity for GM all for the exclusivity of Cadillac and not inclusive of other brands.

Edited by jpd80
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I do give FCA credit for properly cultivating the Jeep brand. Jeep’s global sales have increased by 140% since 2008. That’s an amazing figure, anyway you look at it.

 

But look at this way, they went from the following:

 

2005:

Wrangler

Liberty

Grand Cherokee

 

2008:

Wrangler

Compass

Patriot

Liberty

Grand Cherokee

Commander

 

2017:

Wrangler

Compass

Patriot

Cherokee

Renegade

Grand Cherokee

 

They went from 3 models to 6 (7 if you include the 4 door Wrangler as two different models) plus the Grand Wagoner coming in a few years...you'd see impressive sales gains along with the CUV market becoming the primary focus of cars sales goes a long way to explaining their impressive growth world wide

 

 

 

Eh, from what I've seen Jeep products review pretty well these days. The modern Wrangler, with four doors, the Pentastar, a modern 6-speed transmission, and heavily upgraded interiors have come a long way from the 2007 model. They're perfectly liveable vehicles.

 

The FJ Cruiser and Xterra tried the exact play you advised the Bronco go for. They had better engines, drove better, quieter, better NVH, more fuel efficient, better towing, payload capacity, Nissan and Toyota reliability vs Jeep reliability...both are dead and gone while Jeep is switching to higher capacity factory for the Wrangler because they can't make enough of them.

 

I hope Ford knows something Toyota and Nissan didn't

 

The FJ wasn't that capable as an offroader...it seemed like it was trying to tap into the retro segment that was hot then. Plus the new styling left alot to be desired with visibility out of it from what I understand. The Xterra was never updated and died off because of gas prices and SUV's becoming unpopular.

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The FJ wasn't that capable as an offroader...it seemed like it was trying to tap into the retro segment that was hot then. Plus the new styling left alot to be desired with visibility out of it from what I understand. The Xterra was never updated and died off because of gas prices and SUV's becoming unpopular.

Exactly and the sad fact was that it indeed was built on the LandCruiser 120 platform (Prado) and could have

easly been made more rugged and off road capable, especially with the inclusion of the diesel.

 

Toyota was lazy and just want to pick up easy sales from buyers reminiscing about the original FJ 20 or FJ40 ,

so sad because that Utility could have and should have done much more...

Edited by jpd80
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Exactly and the sad fact was that it indeed was built on the LandCruiser 120 platform (Prado) and could have

easly been made more rugged and off road capable, especially with the inclusion of the diesel.

 

Toyota was lazy and just want to pick up easy sales from buyers reminiscing about the original FJ 20 or FJ40 ,

so sad because that Utility could have and should have done much more...

 

 

It looked to me like once the novelty of the FJ's styling wore off in the market, Toyota SUV buyers switched over to the 4Runner with similar price/features/performance in a more practical 4 door package and 'aggressive' styling. Even though the styling of the FJ was more 'hardcore' than the 4Runner, it still had the same basic platform and powertrain. I'm amazed people still buy new 2017 4Runners with 2007 engines and 5 speed autos, but apparently a modern powertrain isn't that important to buyers in these markets.

 

In the end it will be interesting to see if the new Bronco will be a styling exercise, or a shift to more off road oriented SUV for Ford in the US (like Troller or Everest). It's probably a difficult job for Ford engineers and product planners.

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Regarding Jeep facing competitive threats, I contend that Jeep today is facing threats like never before.

 

There are essentially two market segments in which Jeep enters the market including the true off-road segment and the mainstream utility segment. Wrangler is the original Jeep and serves the niche well, but the other Jeep models are for the most part mainstream utility vehicles and all of the sudden that market has become the focus of the industry.

 

Who would have thought in 1986 that some day shoppers would cross-shop Jeep with Buick, Honda, Lincoln as well as Ford and Chevy.

 

Chrysler's problem has always been quality and they have been chased out of the car market and nearly chased out of the minivan market. With every brand piling on utility vehicles and Jeep going head-to-head with mainstream utilities, I feel that if Jeep and FCA remain independent then it won't be long before Chrysler gets chased out of the Jeep market.

 

Now if Ford owned the Jeep brand...

 

 

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On other sites, Euro car purists are crying "But I want a new Regal based on Opel!". Then go buy one now, Buick is moving to CUV's. And Regal will move to other platforms.

 

And another "But they should figure out how to sell in EU better!", after nearly 20 years and high losses, why bother just to please the fan-boys who like "the idea that GM sells Euro designed cars".

 

A common whine is "but GM needs Opel car designs!" No, they "need" to "see" rebadged Opels for their hobby satisfaction, not to buy. GM fan boys still pine for the day when the company was 50% market share and do not care about reality. Think "market share at any cost" and expect bailouts to do so.

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