New Ford 7.0 L....?

[Bob Rosadini]

 

 

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/62992-camless-engine-production-ready/

AK thx- I don't recall that specific thread-but I do recall the Koennesburgh (sp?) name. Also check out that Clemson thread I posted-there are a lot more references on that.

As always, technical progress seems to be exponential today -as I guess its always been-I have to believe camless engines are right around the corner.

[NLPRacing]

If this mythical 7.0L makes it to production, how many cubic inches do you think it will be, 427, 428, 429...? An all new BOSS 429 would be cool.

 

 

You can get a new 429 from these guys. KAASE BOSS NINE

[SoonerLS]

Not even thinking of the 534 but does any production capability exist to resurrect the 460?

Ford Performance still sells 460 crate engines, so the production capability must still exist; the question is whether Ford still has it or if they outsourced it.

[Bob Rosadini]

Ford Performance still sells 460 crate engines, so the production capability must still exist; the question is whether Ford still has it or if they outsourced it.

SLS-My guess is they are outsourced. And I say that because if you go to Ford Power Products you won't find any push rod engines. Sad fact. I remember when there was all sorts of industrial equipment that was Ford Powered-be it boom lifts, compressors etc. I remember one line of portable air compressors that was a 302-4cylinders powered and the other bank was the air compressor. Most uniquer piece I was ever involved with was a 460 that was used for underground gasoline recovery operations. The engine burned recovered hydrocarbons! those were the days. The Ford Power Products site is like one page and states its a Ford subsidiary-but everything is outsourced.

[SoonerLS]

The Ford Power Products site is like one page and states its a Ford subsidiary-but everything is outsourced.

Ford Performance wouldn't need a full-speed production line for their limited volume, so it may well have been outsourced. If it was, I'm guessing that it still has to be close to a Ford plant, and is most likely running with Ford tooling and processes, so it shouldn't be that hard to bring the production back online--the problem, as RJ noted, is that it has been 20 years since those mills were in production, so the engineers who knew how to make them meet efficiency, durability, and emissions targets are most likely either retired or so far out of the pushrod game that they might as well be retired.

 

I do have to admit, though--the idea of a 460 built with modern materials and processes is intriguing as all get out....

Edited April 13, 2017 by SoonerLS

[Sevensecondsuv]

The 6.2L design was to also include 5.8 and 7.0 in the early design.

This is interesting. Perhaps we'll also see the 5.8 as well. This would especially make sense if the superduty pickups were going back to two gas engine options. No need for the 6.2 as a base engine if the 7.0 is available. In this case, selling a bunch of base 5.8 trucks might help offset the 7.0 pickups in the the cafe game. If the 5.8 is just a reduced displacement 6.2 with optimized heads, it could probably be done pretty inexpensively.

[7Mary3]

This is indeed interesting! I still have a hard time believing this engine will not be a 6.2L derivative, but I have seen Ford do things that made less sense. I have a feeling that this engine will probably replace the 6.8L in the truck line, and may not be available in 250-350 pickups. But, if it makes it into the F-650 and it gets the new Super Duty aluminum cab, I may consider buying one myself!

[jpd80]

Ford Performance still sells 460 crate engines, so the production capability must still exist; the question is whether Ford still has it or if they outsourced it.

I don't see it on their website, the 460 ended production completely in 1997,

anything beyond that time would have been Stock being used down

 

The 460 they advertise is based on an overgrown Windsor....

 

Even in industrial engines, the 460 is listed as out of production and the 6.8 V10 as ts replacement.

Edited April 13, 2017 by jpd80

[Mad Hatter]

SLS-My guess is they are outsourced. And I say that because if you go to Ford Power Products you won't find any push rod engines. Sad fact. I remember when there was all sorts of industrial equipment that was Ford Powered-be it boom lifts, compressors etc. I remember one line of portable air compressors that was a 302-4cylinders powered and the other bank was the air compressor.

Gordon Smith was the company. We had one of the 100 CFM models with the 302 and it was an excellent product. We got it ~1990-1992 and I think Smith went out of business a bit later. Seems like there was a larger model, also-maybe with a 351 or 460?

[Bob Rosadini]

Gordon Smith was the company. We had one of the 100 CFM models with the 302 and it was an excellent product. We got it ~1990-1992 and I think Smith went out of business a bit later. Seems like there was a larger model, also-maybe with a 351 or 460?

Ah thx- I was going to say "smith" but I wasn't sure

[Sevensecondsuv]

Last I looked, Ford power products sold the duratec 2500, the 3.5 V6, and the 6.8 V10. These replaced the 2.3 SOHC Lima, the 4.9 straight six, and the 460, respectively.

[SoonerLS]

The 460 they advertise is based on an overgrown Windsor....

The 429/460's block was basically a Windsor writ large, but, yeah, on further review it looks like it's probably not the same 460 that was in production.

[jpd80]

The 429/460's block was basically a Windsor writ large, but, yeah, on further review it looks like it's probably not the same 460 that was in production.

Not many of us ever expected a 460 Windsor to exist let alone to be readily available.

 

I'd like to think that if Ford had chosen the 385 Series Lima as a basis for a 21st century SD/MD Truck engine,

we would have seen 370 (6.2), 429 (7.0) and 460 (7.5) variations with at least SOHC 3-valve heads and VCT.

[theoldwizard]

The 6.2L design was to also include 5.8 and 7.0 in the early design. When Ford saw what was coming in late '06 the program was officially put on hold.

I actually saw heads for the "Hurricane", as it was called back then, around that time.

 

Some powertrain engineers still did some work but was more of just rogue engineers tinkering. Come 2009 The Raptor was in planning and it needed more power than the 5.4L could muster and the heavy pickups were going to start to have to post fuel economy stickers in a few years so they needed something with better mileage and that's how the just the 6.2L got out of the penalty box, the other 2 versions were dead.

Before that time, they knew that the "little brother" did NOT have the fuel economy and power numbers they wanted. That helped kick off development of the Coyote. That is a story by itself ! A very small group of engineers some how convinced management that they could turn the tired old 4.6L into a performance engine in a VERY short period of time !

 

Hopefully some of those guys are still around to do what I assume is an all new head for the 7.0L !

 

 

[theoldwizard]

Yes, i remember an insider posting the proposed bore and stroke for the 5.8 and the 777 program (7 liters, 700 hp 7,000 rpm.

was part of Racing research.......

 

That engine, and several others, used to be sitting in the lobby of Building #2.

 

I wonder what happened to the DOHC Indy engine that sat in the lobby of EEE/POEE/FRL for years and years.

[Fgts]

Curious are those International gas engines converted diesels or did they pony up and develop dedicated gasoline and gaseous fuel engines?

Navstar have thier own blocks now after the the Ford fiasco for diesel. GM/Navstar is believed to be working on a ohv V8 to be in the 7.0-8.0 range to pick-up where the old 8100 Vortec left-off. Hopeful imo this engine will end up in a Chevy car or light-duty truck for good GM/Ford rivalry.

 

Don't know if FCA is working on a large Hemi beyond the 6.4.

[RichardJensen]

I wonder what happened to the DOHC Indy engine that sat in the lobby of EEE/POEE/FRL for years and years.

 

I love that engine--everything about it.

 

I mean, that thing is about the craziest bit of kludgework that ever won a race.

[7Mary3]

What is the story with Ford Power Products? They don't seem to exist anymore, but I have seen some new gen. sets with 2 valve 6.8L's in them. GM turned their industrial engine operations over to PSI, and they not only market the engines to OEM's but they also do a lot of manufacturing as well. Does Ford have a similar arrangement going on?

 

I too have heard GM has a large displacement V-8 under development, no idea if it is a resurrected 8.1L or a 6.0L LS development.

 

I was told Navistar was kicking themselves for not going through with the purchase of GM's medium duty truck line in 2007 because it would have included rights to use the 8.1L gasoline V-8. They are buying the new 8.8L version from PSI for school buses now.

Edited April 13, 2017 by 7Mary3

[MY93SHO]

There's been a rumor of a GM 7.0L truck engine pretty much since they put one in the Corvette.

[jpd80]

That engine was a hand built big bore long stroke LS that used titanium rods and a dry sump.

I don't think GM had any intentions of developing a larger LS for truck work,

 

The previous L18 8.0 liter V8 line was removed from Tonawada in 2009 to make way for more Ecotec

and Gen 5 production. Even if GM wanted to resume big block production, they'd have to start from scratch.

 

 

 

 

The 777 engine program was suitably named since the goal was 7.0L liters, 7,000 rpm and 700 horsepower. The project was relatively short-lived, but it was fun to watch Ford develop what many thought was the next hot Mustang V8. The 777 was actually a big-bore Raptor engine (based off the 6.2L), but with a 4.125-inch bore, 4.00-inch stroke, and modified heads for higher flow. Ford over achieved, as the 777 made closer to 800 horsepower and ran in the 9.10-second range in Don Bowles drag car. As you can see, the version here featured the wild individual runner intake in a sealed box. Internally, it had high compression and unique cam drive arrangement. The downside was the physical size, as this engine was huge.

 

Link to article....

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by jpd80

[MY93SHO]

" That engine was a hand built big bore long stroke LS that used titanium rods and a dry sump."

 

No kidding.

 

"I don't think GM had any intentions of developing a larger LS for truck work,"

That's what the rumor was. Of course it would be a "truck" motor, not a vette motor.

[White99GT]

It can also be claimed that OHC theoretically allows a better port shape/angle/profile, but it's obvious to me that this isn't really holding the Hemi and LS engines back.

 

Reduced valvetrain mass is another benefit of ohc, but again, this doesn't seem to be holding the Hemi or LS back.

 

The Hemi is better than the LS, but the pushrod, wedge layout of the LS is definitely hurting their potential. A lot.

[7Mary3]

The Chevy big blocks are still in limited production, though not at Tonawanda. GM appears top be doing the Mark VI 8.0L themselves and PSI is doing the 8.8L and 10.4L Mark VII, I think with a lot of GM supplied castings. If GM were to bring a derivative of one of these engines back, they would not be starting for scratch. All that having been said, I kind of doubt their new large displacement V-8 would be that closely related the either one of those dinosaurs. Sure, the current LS 7.0L is a high performance toy, but one would think a tall deck iron block LS design around 7L would have potential as a truck engine.

[jpd80]

The Chevy big blocks are still in limited production, though not at Tonawanda. GM appears top be doing the Mark VI 8.0L themselves and PSI is doing the 8.8L and 10.4L Mark VII, I think with a lot of GM supplied castings. If GM were to bring a derivative of one of these engines back, they would not be starting for scratch. All that having been said, I kind of doubt their new large displacement V-8 would be that closely related the either one of those dinosaurs. Sure, the current LS 7.0L is a high performance toy, but one would think a tall deck iron block LS design around 7L would have potential as a truck engine.

Unless you're prepared to tolerate the compromise of siamesed cylinder bores, a tall deck LS is doubtful in HD applications.

I think that's why GM resisted growing the iron 6.0 LS block.....would a gasoline version of the 6.6 Duramax seem more likely?

 

I would be interested in specific fuel consumption under load, I understand that this is where the Ford 6.8 excelled,

so much that the GM 8.1 could not compete. I ofen wondered about the dramatic pull out until simeone pointed to

a rather large drop in fleet purchases driven by fuel costs....I understand that this also coincided with the 2008/09

restructuring of GM and that other factors may hav played a part...like offering Duramax (improved efficiency / profit)

 

On the 7.0 liter truck engine, it's telling that Ford chose a new engine line for the project instead of combining

with the exsting 6.2 line - that suggests significant differences in machining and assembly processes.

Edited April 13, 2017 by jpd80

[jpd80]

The Hemi is better than the LS, but the pushrod, wedge layout of the LS is definitely hurting their potential. A lot.

A 3-valve head has distinctive advantages over the hemi for truck work, it allows two smaller inlet ports

and much higher low end torque via charge motion plates that close off half of the ports at low speed.

Edited April 13, 2017 by jpd80