jpd80 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Man there is A LOT of talk about pushrods around the Internet. How long do we have to wait to find out about this engine again? Its been stated many times that production starts last quarter of this year. Well were 10.5 months in, times a gettin near. First test engines are built late this year, new 10R140 August 2019. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Well if it is truly intended for commercial applications and in particular class 6 and 7, I think next big event is the Work Truck Show March 5-8 in Indianapolis. I would hope it is sooner as class 6 and 7 need a shot in the arm -that is if it is not too late and Hatchett has already decided that in addition to cars being a thing of the past, "commercial truck leadership" means class 1-3! Sales seem to trough a bit in class 4 and then recover in class 5... I wonder if that's because of available engines being hit and miss in class 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 In any event while there may still be some speculation that the 650 and 750 might be dropped for 2020, I don.t think there is any question the 450 and 550 will continue. 7X will be a big improvement for not only the 450 and 550, but the 250 and 350 was well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) Absolutely, more capacity is the gasoline engine's biggest friend in Medium Duty, There are now fuel economy targets in class 2B so maybe they have to pass on the 7.3 V8 in F250 but I see no such impediment on F350 and up Edited October 14, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 It would be a travesty if Ford drops out of the Mediums at the very same time Gm ramps up for them. Yes I know the heavies move the goods down the highway and yes they haul concrete but the mediums do most everything else. I remember the days when Ford built C, F, L and LN medium trucks and frankly they owned the road in my opinion. I got to drive an LN 700 shortie dump truck back in the 70s with a 361 gas V8. Truck was phenomenal for its time. It was easy to drive and work with. Ford also owned the fire truck business at least as far as the smaller departments were concerned. My little volunteer unit had a gas 361 powered pumper C series. There was nothing at that time even close to that chassis. I swear I think for could reintroduce the old C series chassis with the 6.2 or the 6.7 Powerstroke and the Torqshift tranny and STILL give anything on the road today a run for its money. In my opinion Ford was as good at making medium trucks as they were at making tractors and Ford made great tractors which they dumped as well. What has happened to this once world beating company? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 ...What has happened to this once world beating company? . Here are a few reasons....pay particular attention to the second name down... Mark Fields Jacques Nasser Alex Trotman Harold Arthur Poling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) It would be a travesty if Ford drops out of the Mediums at the very same time Gm ramps up for them......... 'Medium duty' refers to heavier class 3 through the lighter end of class 7. Keep in mind that GM has not had any medium duty at all since 2009 and that includes class 4 and 5 trucks like the F-450 and 550. The new Silverado medium duty is primarily aimed at class 4 and 5, but since it's a larger truck GM is stretching it into class 6. I don't think there is any chance that Ford will drop the 450 and 550, so even if the 650 and 750 are dropped it isn't as if Ford will not still be in medium duty nor still competitive with GM. I am NOT convinced at this point the 650 and 750 are going away. Official word from Ford is they are not, but FWIW I am hearing all kinds of conflicting rumors. Edited October 14, 2018 by 7Mary3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Heres what I think. If Ford kills the 650 and 750 after this latest effort they will kill most of the incentive to buy a 450 or 550. Inconsistency and hazey futures dont endear you with future customers. These work trucks are not fads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Heres what I think. If Ford kills the 650 and 750 after this latest effort they will kill most of the incentive to buy a 450 or 550. Inconsistency and hazey futures dont endear you with future customers. These work trucks are not fads. For sure, any operator who also runs class 6 and 7 would likely want all his eggs in one basket-from a dealer relationship as well as parts perspective assuming the class 6 and 7 offerings are not a completely different package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 'Medium duty' refers to heavier class 3 through the lighter end of class 7. Keep in mind that GM has not had any medium duty at all since 2009 and that includes class 4 and 5 trucks like the F-450 and 550. The new Silverado medium duty is primarily aimed at class 4 and 5, but since it's a larger truck GM is stretching it into class 6. I don't think there is any chance that Ford will drop the 450 and 550, so even if the 650 and 750 are dropped it isn't as if Ford will not still be in medium duty nor still competitive with GM. I am NOT convinced at this point the 650 and 750 are going away. Official word from Ford is they are not, but FWIW I am hearing all kinds of conflicting rumors. So have any of your GM contacts given you GM's rationale to offer a class 6 that does not go all the way to 26,000 lbs.?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 So have any of your GM contacts given you GM's rationale to offer a class 6 that does not go all the way to 26,000 lbs.?? Specifically no, but I have my ideas as to why. Like I said, I think their JV effort with Navistar is for a truck that is primarily class 4/5. However, their truck looks like it is a bit overbuilt (I beam front axle on leaf springs, straight C-channel frame) for class 4/5, so they can go into class 6 with it. I think the limiting factors may be 19.5 wheels and tires, and no air brake option. I have heard that more options and configurations will be offered over the next few model years, so they may eventually go to 26,000#'s GVW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 (edited) Heres what I think. If Ford kills the 650 and 750 after this latest effort they will kill most of the incentive to buy a 450 or 550. Inconsistency and hazey futures dont endear you with future customers. These work trucks are not fads. There was a time I would totally agree with that, but I am not too sure these days. Consider that the market leader in class 4 and 5 is Ram, and they do not go to class 6. The company I work for buys Ford and Chevy for class 2 through 3, Ford. Ram, and Isuzu for class 4 and 5, and Freightliner for 6 and above. Some very specialized units are International because that's what the upfitter builds on. We are going to try the new Silverado medium duty. I completely agree that inconsistency and hazy plans will not go unnoticed by fleet buyers. Edited October 15, 2018 by 7Mary3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 There was a time I would totally agree with that, but I am not too sure these days. Consider that the market leader in class 4 and 5 is Ram, and they do not go to class 6. The company I work for buys Ford and Chevy for class 2 through 3, Ford. Ram, and Isuzu for class 4 and 5, and Freightliner for 6 and above. Some very specialized units are International because that's what the upfitter builds on. We are going to try the new Silverado medium duty. I completely agree that inconsistency and hazy plans will not go unnoticed by fleet buyers. I admit up front that I’m not up to speed on trucks like some of you are but that being said I do know that small municipalities, utilities and departments that virtually make this country operate could benefit greatly from commonality in product lines. I mean the littlest things that screw you up like cooler line fittings, o-rings, certain clamps, lug nuts filters and all sorts of small things that get you all the time. Well I’m here to restate that operating a common line of vehicles that run the gamut from say class 2-7 will be much more efficient if the little things fall into place. If I were charged with anything like the planning and/or execution of Ford’s commercial truck product line one of the very first things I’d do is draw attention to this aspect of the business. I’d market Ford commercial vehicles in this way. I’d tick the boxes that managers know deep down inside but sometimes fail to think about when about to purchase. Not only that I’d play up the fact that any factory trainings for outside technicians could be streamlined and overlapped. Shit fire I’d find a way to get the trainings for free. This is the way it used to work guys. It’s not rocket science but it just seems Ford has little or no imagination in making this business grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blksn8k2 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Ford seems to be slipping into some sort of Euro high end mode where they have no interest in trying to deal with low profit margin markets. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with that strategy but it sure is different from the past when they were more of the "everyman's" car company. I understand the challenges of competing with the Asians, the global economy, etc. but this new strategy is certainly different from what got them there. We hear it all the time in sports when a competitor says they are not going to change how they play the game when that is exactly what got them to the championship game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Ford seems to be slipping into some sort of Euro high end mode where they have no interest in trying to deal with low profit margin markets. WOW ! Those are almost EXACTLY the same words that Jacque the Knife said when he killed off Heavy Duty Truck (I was there). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevensecondsuv Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) Yep. Abandoning your core/root market is a real dumb move. Ford has always been an everyman's auto/truck company. Hackett seems to want to chase ATPs above all else. I can see why - running a profitable car company is so much easier when margins are high. But nobody is ever going to embrace Ford as a high-end make. All it'll get them is dwindling market share and priced out of many markets. Ford isn't like Hyundai where they came in as essentially Yugo with very little barrier to being a Toy/Honda competitor other than building better cars. Ford has been here for 110+ years and has a firmly established reputation. Any attempt to move significantly up market isn't going to work - PAG being exhibit-A. 2017 median household income in the US was approx $60k I think. This is the buyers Ford should be focused on. Not the $120k+ household income it takes to realistically afford a $50,000 F150 that Ford likes to brag about. Edited October 17, 2018 by Sevensecondsuv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Yep. Abandoning your core/root market is a real dumb move. Ford has always been an everyman's auto/truck company. Hackett seems to want to chase ATPs above all else. I can see why - running a profitable car company is so much easier when margins are high. But nobody is ever going to embrace Ford as a high-end make. All it'll get them is dwindling market share and priced out of many markets. Ford isn't like Hyundai where they came in as essentially Yugo with very little barrier to being a Toy/Honda competitor other than building better cars. Ford has been here for 110+ years and has a firmly established reputation. Any attempt to move significantly up market isn't going to work - PAG being exhibit-A. 2017 median household income in the US was approx $60k I think. This is the buyers Ford should be focused on. Not the $120k+ household income it takes to realistically afford a $50,000 F150 that Ford likes to brag about. The average cost of a new car is roughly $35k. Pricing might be getting out of hand, but outside of building a car in China or even Mexico to make a profit. there is no way of putting that gene back into the bottle. This why we are approaching the nexus of ride sharing/autonomous cars/etc for a set fee. Youll lease a car for $500, but that price will include insurance and off site recharging-but you wont own the car-youll have to use an app and hopefully it will show up within 10-15 minutes of it showing up. Thats where this is all leading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSchicago Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 There was a time I would totally agree with that, but I am not too sure these days. Consider that the market leader in class 4 and 5 is Ram, and they do not go to class 6. The company I work for buys Ford and Chevy for class 2 through 3, Ford. Ram, and Isuzu for class 4 and 5, and Freightliner for 6 and above. Some very specialized units are International because that's what the upfitter builds on. We are going to try the new Silverado medium duty. I completely agree that inconsistency and hazy plans will not go unnoticed by fleet buyers. Good luck with the new Silverado. The class 6 is at the bottom of the class for GVWR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 The average cost of a new car is roughly $35k. Pricing might be getting out of hand, but outside of building a car in China or even Mexico to make a profit. there is no way of putting that gene back into the bottle. This why we are approaching the nexus of ride sharing/autonomous cars/etc for a set fee. Youll lease a car for $500, but that price will include insurance and off site recharging-but you wont own the car-youll have to use an app and hopefully it will show up within 10-15 minutes of it showing up. Thats where this is all leading. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzach Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 The average cost of a new car is roughly $35k. Pricing might be getting out of hand, but outside of building a car in China or even Mexico to make a profit. there is no way of putting that gene back into the bottle. This why we are approaching the nexus of ride sharing/autonomous cars/etc for a set fee. Youll lease a car for $500, but that price will include insurance and off site recharging-but you wont own the car-youll have to use an app and hopefully it will show up within 10-15 minutes of it showing up. Thats where this is all leading. You know I just realized that the less new cars that are sold then the less used cars there will be and the more expensive they will get for anyone that does want one. It will be a vicious cycle. Oh well hopefully that process will take long enough that it doesn't effect me too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Yep. Abandoning your core/root market is a real dumb move. Ford has always been an everyman's auto/truck company. Hackett seems to want to chase ATPs above all else. I can see why - running a profitable car company is so much easier when margins are high. But nobody is ever going to embrace Ford as a high-end make. All it'll get them is dwindling market share and priced out of many markets. Ford isn't like Hyundai where they came in as essentially Yugo with very little barrier to being a Toy/Honda competitor other than building better cars. Ford has been here for 110+ years and has a firmly established reputation. Any attempt to move significantly up market isn't going to work - PAG being exhibit-A. 2017 median household income in the US was approx $60k I think. This is the buyers Ford should be focused on. Not the $120k+ household income it takes to realistically afford a $50,000 F150 that Ford likes to brag about. But F series IS Ford's core/root market along with Transit, Ranger, Bronco, Mustang, Explorer, Edge and Escape. They're not chasing ATPs specifically - they're chasing profit margins. Higher margins are easier to obtain with higher ATPS but that doesn't mean you can't get a 8% margin on a $25K baby bronco e.g. Hybrid and PHEV utilities will bring higher margins simply because there isn't much competition in those markets. Autonomous cars and the Transportation as a Service platform represents not just a one time sale of an AV but several years of monthly revenue from the operators of those vehicles using the TaaS platform which isn't affected by swings in the new car market. Continuing to put resources into traditional Focus and Fusion vehicles where you have tremendous competition and you have companies willing to accept lower profit margins for higher volume is silly from a purely financial standpoint. Chasing those markets simply take resources away from the other better investments. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 You know I just realized that the less new cars that are sold then the less used cars there will be and the more expensive they will get for anyone that does want one. It will be a vicious cycle. Oh well hopefully that process will take long enough that it doesn't effect me too much. There's no viscous cycle if those used car buyers are also switching to utilities and trucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 There's no viscous cycle slippery slope...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) It's a technique I use in training presentations to identify the OCDs who just have to say something Here's another one Aluminium......I use it alot......:P Edited October 17, 2018 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 The average cost of a new car is roughly $35k. Pricing might be getting out of hand, but outside of building a car in China or even Mexico to make a profit. there is no way of putting that gene back into the bottle. This why we are approaching the nexus of ride sharing/autonomous cars/etc for a set fee. Youll lease a car for $500, but that price will include insurance and off site recharging-but you wont own the car-youll have to use an app and hopefully it will show up within 10-15 minutes of it showing up. Thats where this is all leading. Well isn't the reason we can't build a low cost car in this country simply because we have a model that says... the more complexity and systems you put into it the higher the ATP?? If Ford designed a manufacturing system to crank out a bare bones inexpensive car, they couldn't do it?? Its the age of robots, outsourced sub assemblies (I think) so why can't they crank out an import fighter? IMO they can-but the ATP issue is what seems to be the only yardstick that matters. Like I said-IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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