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How big could the 6.7 scorpion block go?

 

Wouldn't it be overkill for a gas engine? Especially when it comes to the weight?

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Interesting discussion on gas engines for class 4/5/6/7 commercial trucks. Ford use to use the Lincoln Y block in their commercial trucks. I think they were 279, 302 and 332 cubic inches. These were replaced by the Ford Super Duty 401, 477 and 534 V8 gas engines. Many of these were replaced by the Ford FT series, which was a heavy duty truck version of the FE series on the class 6 and low end of the class 7. I think these were a 391, 361 cubic inches V8's.

 

I think the thing sparking interest in gas engine in class 4 thru 6 is alternative fuels like propane and LPG. But again as someone else has said, anything that happens has to be justified financially which is very difficult to do when you are talking about 165,000 units for the entire industry for class 6 and 7.

 

Yes the 6.2 archetecture at a manufacturing plant level could reach up to 7 liters and even to about 470 cubic inches (7.7 liters) if the cylinder block is redesigned to have about a 10" deck height and CGI is used for the block material instead of grey iron. Will Ford do both a 7.0 liter and a 7.7 liter? I guess we need to waite and see.

 

Edselford

That's where I was thinking they could add two cylinders to the 7.0, making a 8.8L V10. To me, it sounds like an easier way to get a big bump in displacement without co-producing a significantly taller deck block with different internals since they already have the design knowledge and manufacturing line for a V10.

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Wouldn't it be overkill for a gas engine? Especially when it comes to the weight?

Biggest problem I see with the Scorpion is that it's set up for reverse flow heads, which make no sense on a naturally aspirated engine. Edited by Sevensecondsuv

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That's where I was thinking they could add two cylinders to the 7.0, making a 8.8L V10. To me, it sounds like an easier way to get a big bump in displacement without co-producing a significantly taller deck block with different internals since they already have the design knowledge and manufacturing line for a V10.

And like the 5;4 / 6.8, those engines could be built n the same plant with machinery that could

switch between producing the two. A serious consideration when producing lower volume engines.

 

With stronger crank and pins, the bigger engines may avoid the cracking problems that plagued

the early simpler V10 plan that used shared crank pins and didn't require a balance shaft.

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Biggest problem I see with the Scorpion is that it's set up for reverse flow heads, which make no sense on a naturally aspirated engine.

 

You could design an all new gas engine with new heads, induction, etc. and still use the Scorpion block. Not sure if that would make sense or not. How much does a bare Scorpion engine block casting weigh compared to a 6.2 block?

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If I remember correctly, the 6.7L Scorpion block is made from compacted graphite iron, so it should be light enough and strong enough to make the cut.

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If I remember correctly, the 6.7L Scorpion block is made from compacted graphite iron, so it should be light enough and strong enough to make the cut.

 

Did some digging...the 6.7 is 160lbs lighter then the 6.4L diesel, but weighs in at 1100lbs with oil

 

For comparison, the V-10 only weighs 620lbs or so.

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Did some digging...the 6.7 is 160lbs lighter then the 6.4L diesel, but weighs in at 1100lbs with oil

 

For comparison, the V-10 only weighs 620lbs or so.

 

The installed weight of the 6.7L is about 700 lbs more than the 6.2L. But, you have to keep in mind there is a lot of extra stuff on the 6.7L, including:

 

  • More fluids: I think it's around 50 lbs or more just in fluids
  • Extra radiator (I don't think the 6.2L has a dual cooling system)
  • Turbo and associated plumbing
  • Intercooler
  • Diesel Particulate Filter
  • Diesel Oxidation Catalyst
  • Diesel Exhaust Fluid tank, fluid (7+ gallons so 60 lbs), injector, piper, heater, etc.

 

I'm sure there are other things as well.

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Both 7.0 liter V8 and a 7.7 liter V8 could be made from the same block with a 10" deck height. Much easier than dealing with balance shafts, crankpin breakage issues due to a 90 degree V10.

 

105.6mm bore and 100.2mm stroke gives 7.0 liter V8. 105.6mm bore and 110mm stroke gives 7.7 liter V8. out of the same block!

 

edselford

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http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/engine/an-inside-look-at-the-6-7-power-stroke-including-2015-updates/

 

 

 

Ford was not only looking to increase the power and reliability of the engine, they were hoping to reduce the weight. This could give them better fuel economy but also the ability to increase the trucks payload capacity. With a stronger material, Ford was able to optimize the block design utilizing the stronger material. (Overall engine is about 160 pounds lighter than the previous generation 6.4.)

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That's where I was thinking they could add two cylinders to the 7.0, making a 8.8L V10. To me, it sounds like an easier way to get a big bump in displacement without co-producing a significantly taller deck block with different internals since they already have the design knowledge and manufacturing line for a V10.

Or they could just add 2 cylinders to the 6.2 for a 7.75 Liter V10 for 473 cubic inch. That should be enough for a MD. (I've owned a F650 V10).

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No V-10. no gasoline engine based on Powerstroke block. Remember the Powerstroke is manufactured in Mexico, and new gasoline engine will be built in Windsor. I think this thing is all-new.

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If we're thinking of extensions to existing engines,

 

The 6.7 Blocks come from Tupy so it's possible that a variation of the 6.7 diesel is made as a larger gasoline engine with

conventional flow head design - a bigger bore with the diesel's 4.2 stroke would deliver the much needed low end torque.

Edited by jpd80

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I agree that 10 cylinders aren't needed if 7.8 is enough displacement. However, adding cylinders would likely be the easiest way to exceed 8.5L displacement.

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I agree that 10 cylinders aren't needed if 7.8 is enough displacement. However, adding cylinders would likely be the easiest way to exceed 8.5L displacement.

I would be absolutely SHOCKED :thud: if Ford EVER built another V10 ! It would only happen if Ford was going to do a whole new family of engines (like they did with the Modular) AND the V10 was planned from Day 1 !! Even then, the bean counters would likely point out that the cost of the extra pistons, rods, etc., etc. does NOT justify the cost of all new machine capability.

 

COST, both tooling (fixed) and production (variable) ALWAYS control product decision.

 

So, based on those statements, I predict any new gasoline engine will use a block similar to something already in production. Heads are wide open; 2V, 3V, 4V, SOHC DOHC or any combination.

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I agree,

 

current V10/ 5.8l V8, 5,4l V8 are at 256mm deck height! I would maintain this dimension on a new 7.0 liter V8 plus or minus 2mm. Its like what can we machine on the existing cylinder block line????

 

LIkewise, on the new 4.8 liter V8, Ford could keep the current 227mm deck height of the 5.0 liter/5.2 liter V8's or make an adjustment up to say 233mm to 237mm, utilize 93mm stroke and have about a 1.67 to 1.70 Rod/stroke ratio instead of their current 1.62. IE make the 4.8 a truck engine!

 

Edselford

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Both 7.0 liter V8 and a 7.7 liter V8 could be made from the same block with a 10" deck height. Much easier than dealing with balance shafts, crankpin breakage issues due to a 90 degree V10.

 

105.6mm bore and 100.2mm stroke gives 7.0 liter V8. 105.6mm bore and 110mm stroke gives 7.7 liter V8. out of the same block!

Very interesting, but only feasible IF the current block machining line could accommodate that extra 10mm ! That would take it from slightly under square to slightly over square. It would not help NVH. Over square engines have more sliding friction on the rings/cylinder walls than under square which does not help overall efficiency.

 

Personally I am expecting big changes in the cylinder head, possibly even cast in exhaust manifolds.

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I had a crazy idea pop in my head and figure I would share it here. What if Ford was developing an all new V8 CGI block that could be used a gasoline engine with a displacement up to 7.0L and as a diesel up to 5.0L? A 5.0L PowerStroke would bridge the gap nicely between the the 3.0L that is coming out and the current 6.7L.

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I had a crazy idea pop in my head and figure I would share it here. What if Ford was developing an all new V8 CGI block that could be used a gasoline engine with a displacement up to 7.0L and as a diesel up to 5.0L? A 5.0L PowerStroke would bridge the gap nicely between the the 3.0L that is coming out and the current 6.7L.

That would only make sense if Ford was going to develop a new V8 diesel from scratch.

If Ford wants a smaller V8 diesel with CGI block, it has the 4.4 V8 built at Dagenham.

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Any new information on the new 7.3 V8 gasolineengine?

The video of the Prime Minister of Canada at the plant seems to show new 7.3 V8 engine blocks that are longer than the current 6.2 V8.

This would indicate an increase in bore centers from 115mm to something around 117mm.

If it is a push rod design, expect two cams in block! One cam for intake and the other for exhaust.

I could easily see. 7.3, a 7.0 and possibly a 6.277 versions over time.

Appreciate any inputs

Edselford

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Any new information on the new 7.3 V8 gasolineengine?

The video of the Prime Minister of Canada at the plant seems to show new 7.3 V8 engine blocks that are longer than the current 6.2 V8.

This would indicate an increase in bore centers from 115mm to something around 117mm.

If it is a push rod design, expect two cams in block! One cam for intake and the other for exhaust.

We've been discussing it in the light & medium duty news thread. So far, the only solid info is the statements in Canada (which really didn't say much) and the leaked oil spec sheet that showed a displacement of 7.3L--and that only tells us about the 2020 MY, not about future variants. Everything else is rumor and speculation.

 

Personally, I don't think pushrods are in the cards, and having two cams in a pushrod engine makes very little sense to me. If you have two cams, it makes far more sense, IMHO, to have them over the heads; the main advantage of the cam-in-block design is simplicity, and if you're going to have the complexity of multiple cams, you might as well take the advantages that OHCs offer you. (There are packaging advantages to pushrod engines, but we're talking about replacing the 6.2 and V10, so you're not going to see much in the way of packaging advantages.)

 

Ford also has the institutional knowledge to make OHCs work, but they haven't built a production cam-in-block gasser in more than 20 years. It's all speculation, so anything is still possible, but it just doesn't seem likely.

Edited by SoonerLS

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The video of the Prime Minister of Canada at the plant seems to show new 7.3 V8 engine blocks that are longer than the current 6.2 V8.

This would indicate an increase in bore centers from 115mm to something around 117mm.

 

You can see a difference in 8mm in length in a video? That's impressive.

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Any new information on the new 7.3 V8 gasolineengine?

The video of the Prime Minister of Canada at the plant seems to show new 7.3 V8 engine blocks that are longer than the current 6.2 V8.

This would indicate an increase in bore centers from 115mm to something around 117mm.

If it is a push rod design, expect two cams in block! One cam for intake and the other for exhaust.

I could easily see. 7.3, a 7.0 and possibly a 6.277 versions over time.

Appreciate any inputs

Edselford

The announcement about the Essex plant was made at the Windsor plant ( Coyote in the background)

 

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You can see a difference in 8mm in length in a video? That's impressive.

.

No problem if you are the Six Million Dollar Man...

640_steve.jpg

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