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New Ford 7.0 L....?


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Just on A class motorhome chassis, maybe the reason Ford has no competition is exactly because others have left the market to seek easier profits elsewhere ?

I find it amusing that just because GM s getting back into MD, everyone thinks that GM will chase down every possible sale instead of just sticking to the easy high profit ones...

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58 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Just on A class motorhome chassis, maybe the reason Ford has no competition is exactly because others have left the market to seek easier profits elsewhere ?

I find it amusing that just because GM s getting back into MD, everyone thinks that GM will chase down every possible sale instead of just sticking to the easy high profit ones...

GM is coming out of the gate hard on medium duty.  From what I understand, they are promising quick delivery and have already booked some fairly large fleet orders.  Pricing is competitive too.  My company is going to give them a shot, we have a few on order.  Navistar is doing the same with their version, the CV series.   

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 Wires getting  crossed here,  the 6.2 is not going away completely, the 7.3 is perfectly suited to everything above the F250 pick up,

 6.2 sales nose dive in F350 so a lot of new ground for the 7.3 to fill through to Medium Duty..if that's the way Ford plays this..

Edited by jpd80
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9 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

How is that any different than telling them to get the 6.2 if they don't want the diesel? 

A lot of gas F250 buyers will be scared off by the big displacement. Go look at sales split of the 5.4L and 6.8L when both were available. Or the 5.8L windsor vs 7.5L bbf back in the 80s/90s. Lots of buyers just want gasoline simplicity without the "big block fuel penalty" (even if this new 7.x doesn't actually do any worse than the 6.2 in fuel economy). Finding trucks with the big gas engine was always difficult because they just didn't sell well. I know literally dozens of guys who bought 5.4L E/F250/F350 because they were afraid of V10 fuel economy.

As for myself, I always prefer the biggest gas engine offered in a 3/4 ton, but I'm not exactly representative of the market 

Now if both GM and Fia....errrr "RAM" drop the small blocks and go to 7L+ displacement as the only gas option, then Ford can just play along and buyers won't have a choice. As it sits now, it looks like GM doing this new 6.6L which is very similar to the approach Ford took in 2011 when they replaced both the 5.4L and 6.8L with the 6.2L (which only really worked in F250 as evidenced by the 6.8L still being in production).

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35 minutes ago, Sevensecondsuv said:

A lot of gas F250 buyers will be scared off by the big displacement. Go look at sales split of the 5.4L and 6.8L when both were available. Or the 5.8L windsor vs 7.5L bbf back in the 80s/90s. Lots of buyers just want gasoline simplicity without the "big block fuel penalty" (even if this new 7.x doesn't actually do any worse than the 6.2 in fuel economy). Finding trucks with the big gas engine was always difficult because they just didn't sell well. I know literally dozens of guys who bought 5.4L E/F250/F350 because they were afraid of V10 fuel economy.

As for myself, I always prefer the biggest gas engine offered in a 3/4 ton, but I'm not exactly representative of the market 

Now if both GM and Fia....errrr "RAM" drop the small blocks and go to 7L+ displacement as the only gas option, then Ford can just play along and buyers won't have a choice. As it sits now, it looks like GM doing this new 6.6L which is very similar to the approach Ford took in 2011 when they replaced both the 5.4L and 6.8L with the 6.2L (which only really worked in F250 as evidenced by the 6.8L still being in production).

I was told by 3 different dealers that "you don't want the V10 because of fuel mileage". They all pushed me to the diesel when I told them that the 5.4L was woefully underpowered for the F-250. I finally found a dealer 110 miles away that had a V-10 truck that was pretty close to what I wanted/needed. Ironically, I get the same or better mileage than the 5.4L, according to folks I know that bought the 5.4L. NONE of those people still own their trucks, but I do.

 

I think the dealership sales force needs to be better educated on modern drivetrains. In the old days, more cubic inches meant more fuel consumption. With the advanced EFI and computer controls of today, throttle position has more to do with fuel economy than does displacement.

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52 minutes ago, Sevensecondsuv said:

A lot of gas F250 buyers will be scared off by the big displacement. Go look at sales split of the 5.4L and 6.8L when both were available. Or the 5.8L windsor vs 7.5L bbf back in the 80s/90s. Lots of buyers just want gasoline simplicity without the "big block fuel penalty" (even if this new 7.x doesn't actually do any worse than the 6.2 in fuel economy). Finding trucks with the big gas engine was always difficult because they just didn't sell well. I know literally dozens of guys who bought 5.4L E/F250/F350 because they were afraid of V10 fuel economy.

As for myself, I always prefer the biggest gas engine offered in a 3/4 ton, but I'm not exactly representative of the market 

Now if both GM and Fia....errrr "RAM" drop the small blocks and go to 7L+ displacement as the only gas option, then Ford can just play along and buyers won't have a choice. As it sits now, it looks like GM doing this new 6.6L which is very similar to the approach Ford took in 2011 when they replaced both the 5.4L and 6.8L with the 6.2L (which only really worked in F250 as evidenced by the 6.8L still being in production).

 

I’d be willing to bet Ford’s 7.3L will have more power and the same or better fuel economy than the competition’s smaller V8s.

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In any case, it sounds like the 6.2 I sticking around. So it's a moot point for the time being.

That said, I see an opportunity to extend Ford's truck leadership and deliver very class leading fuel economy by replacing the 6.2L with a 4.x or 5.x atmo engine for the base powertrain in F250.  A detuned coyote would work well if it can pass the durability tests. A mild hybrid added to the 3.3/3.5/3.7 might fit the bill too.

There's a lot of F250s sold to fleets that never use the trailer hitch. The old 2v 5.4 was perfectly adequate for these trucks and the 6.2 is overkill.

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9 hours ago, akirby said:

 

I’d be willing to bet Ford’s 7.3L will have more power and the same or better fuel economy than the competition’s smaller V8s.

Careful, I would be inclined to take that bet based on what I have heard so far!  Still a lot we don't know about 7X yet, however.  

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In Medium Duty trucks it's always a safe bet to go with the larger capacity unit, whatever the 6.6 promises to move, the 7.3 will accomplish easier.

The reason we haven't heard anything about the 7.3 is Ford wanting to keep GM in the dark, this is the first time I've seen Ford keep an engine secret for so long.

Edited by jpd80
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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

In Medium Duty trucks it's always a safe bet to go with the larger capacity unit, whatever the 6.6 promises to move, the 7.3 will accomplish easier.

The reason we haven't heard anything about the 7.3 is Ford wanting to keep GM in the dark, this is the first time I've seen Ford keep an engine secret for so long.

If keeping GM in the dark is their goal I’m all for it. 

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No, I think 7X has been on a slow track because it's going to be a low volume engine program and it's not part of a new platform launch.  Remember Ford has been making a lot of cuts lately, I can't imagine this engine program being a very high priority.  That equals a slow development.  But, the bright side is that it's not a rushed program, something Ford has never been good at!

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6 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

No, I think 7X has been on a slow track because it's going to be a low volume engine program and it's not part of a new platform launch.  Remember Ford has been making a lot of cuts lately, I can't imagine this engine program being a very high priority.  That equals a slow development.  But, the bright side is that it's not a rushed program, something Ford has never been good at!

So I get what you’re saying but I have a different thought in my mind. Much of what any manufacturer does is refreshing products at mid-cycle to keep them fresh. Often times spending good amounts of money on forgettable updates which aren’t always very well received. 

This engine could well have a 15 to 20 year shelf life considering it’s intended usage. 

Good truck engines tend to be epic products. I’m very interested to see what Ford builds into this engine. 

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The 6,8 is an incredibly torque rich engine making peak torque of 457 lb ft at 3250,  at 1600 rpm. it's  411 lb ft and at 4750 it's 400 lb ft.

The 6.2 V8 has approx. 100 lb ft less between 1600 and 3200 rpm but matches the 6,8's  torque between 3800 (430) and 4700 (400)

For the 7.3 V8 to be useful in Medium Duty, it needs to have at least 50 lb ft more everywhere over the 6.8 and make around 450 HP at 5200.

Edited by jpd80
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14 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

The 6,8 is an incredibly torque rich engine making peak torque of 457 lb ft at 3250,  at 1600 rpm. it's  411 lb ft and at 4750 it's 400 lb ft.

The 6.2 V8 has approx. 100 lb ft less between 1600 and 3200 rpm but matches the 6,8's  torque between 3800 (430) and 4700 (400)

For the 7.3 V8 to be useful in Medium Duty, it needs to have at least 50 lb ft more everywhere over the 6.8 and make around 450 HP at 5200.

This is a tall order. As I alluded to before, GM couldn’t match the V10 for torque/mpg even with a modernized big block Chevy V8. 

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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

True but why would Ford be replacing a heavily amortized V10 if it couldn't easily exceed its own very good torque numbers...

Rewind back to when the 6.2L was in development.  Most people know that it was supposed to be a "family" of engines in 3 different sizes.  Only the "medium" saw production (the "small" and "large" did not meet all of the design goals).

While the V10 is fully amortized, it is more expensive to manufacture than a 2 valve V8.  The 6.8L has never been known to be a fuel economy champ.  I would still like to see a 3 valve version of the 7.3L

23 minutes ago, fordmantpw said:

I'm expecting 450HP/500 ft-lbs out of the new 7.3L with a torque curve similar to that of the V10 and fuel economy similar to that of the 6.2L.

I'll accept a bit less HP (still has to be > 400HP) and 500 ft-lbs is a good "goal".  I hope they make it.

I wonder how long the 6.2L will stay in production and if it will "inherit" any of the 7.3L or will they just down size the 7.3L ?

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13 minutes ago, theoldwizard said:

...I wonder how long the 6.2L will stay in production and if it will "inherit" any of the 7.3L or will they just down size the 7.3L ?

One option would be to punch out the 6.2L to 6.4L or 6.5L, or, option two would just shrink the bore of the 7.3L but keep the stroke the same for low end torque....trucks love torque...

Edited by twintornados
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14 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

The 6,8 is an incredibly torque rich engine making peak torque of 457 lb ft at 3250,  at 1600 rpm. it's  411 lb ft and at 4750 it's 400 lb ft.

The 6.2 V8 has approx. 100 lb ft less between 1600 and 3200 rpm but matches the 6,8's  torque between 3800 (430) and 4700 (400)

For the 7.3 V8 to be useful in Medium Duty, it needs to have at least 50 lb ft more everywhere over the 6.8 and make around 450 HP at 5200.

This is a tall order. As I alluded to before, GM couldn’t match the V10 for torque/mpg even with a modernized big block Chevy V8. 

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1 hour ago, theoldwizard said:

Rewind back to when the 6.2L was in development.  Most people know that it was supposed to be a "family" of engines in 3 different sizes.  Only the "medium" saw production (the "small" and "large" did not meet all of the design goals).

While the V10 is fully amortized, it is more expensive to manufacture than a 2 valve V8.  The 6.8L has never been known to be a fuel economy champ.  I would still like to see a 3 valve version of the 7.3L

I'll accept a bit less HP (still has to be > 400HP) and 500 ft-lbs is a good "goal".  I hope they make it.

I wonder how long the 6.2L will stay in production and if it will "inherit" any of the 7.3L or will they just down size the 7.3L ?

The 6.4L in the Ram is 410hp/ 429tq. I would hope a brand new 7.3 could easily beat that.

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