akirby Posted May 17, 2016 Share Posted May 17, 2016 I'll have to try that - I don't remember that behavior even in sport mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted May 17, 2016 Share Posted May 17, 2016 I don't find the 6F50 in the Edge or MKX (current or previous models) to be clunky at all. The occasionally abrupt 1-2 and 2-3 upshifts and thumps when downshifting don't bother you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted May 17, 2016 Share Posted May 17, 2016 The ZF8H transmission is also the defacto standard transmission for luxury cars for smoothness and efficiency of operation... I hope Ford has done some magic programming to make the 6F50 as smooth and efficient as the ZF8H. ZF 8HP is indeed the gold standard for performance, efficiency, and refinement among torque converter based automatic transmissions. I don't know how the Ford/GM 10-speed will compare, but no Ford or GM automatic transmission I've experienced until 2014 (when I had to give up driving due to medical reasons) comes close. Both companies' 6-speed automatics are a generation behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 17, 2016 Share Posted May 17, 2016 ZF 8HP is indeed the gold standard for performance, efficiency, and refinement among torque converter based automatic transmissions. I don't know how the Ford/GM 10-speed will compare, but no Ford or GM automatic transmission I've experienced until 2014 (when I had to give up driving due to medical reasons) comes close. Both companies' 6-speed automatics are a generation behind. I have a car with ZF8H and this is why I bring it up all the time... it is THAT good. Buttery smooth and always in the right gear... like magic. It's bar none the best automatic transmission I've ever experienced. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 17, 2016 Share Posted May 17, 2016 The occasionally abrupt 1-2 and 2-3 upshifts and thumps when downshifting don't bother you? I don't recall experiencing those but I'll pay more attention next time I drive it. Where did you experience these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted May 17, 2016 Share Posted May 17, 2016 Where did you experience these? Mostly GM and Ford fleet preview events, along with several rental cars. I acknowledge that the adaptive transmission software in these cars are affected by having multiple drivers operate them over a short period of time. On the other hand, the abrupt 1-2 and 2-3 shifts occurred on nearly every 6-speed FWD (6F/6T) Ford and GM vehicle I drove. Many of the GM vehicles were also afflicted by a notable lag when downshifting (the Fords were better in this regard). All of the Ford and GM products I've purchased for my personal use since 1960 were equipped with manual transmissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted May 17, 2016 Author Share Posted May 17, 2016 (edited) Transmission design is obviously a big under-taking, I think the biggest challenge for Ford and GM is creating a lightweight, inexpensive, and reliable transmission that is extremely scalable and can be produced in huge volumes. Ford is very reluctant to outsource transmissions although they did it briefly in 2005/6 with Aisin while Ford's 6-speed was running behind. I don't think it's incredibly urgent for Ford cars to have the transmission since the benefits are fewer, but for a luxury car I think it's an issue for cutting edge brands with higher standards. Lincoln can probably fudge it for a few years however since they don't have such competitive performance expectations. Edited May 17, 2016 by BORG 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 17, 2016 Share Posted May 17, 2016 I don't see where 8, 9 or 10 speeds makes for smoother shifts. Luxury cars in the past had 4 or 5 speed trannys that were perfectly smooth. I suppose more gears can keep down the RPM reducing engine noise but I think the pat more gears is for better fuel economy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted May 17, 2016 Share Posted May 17, 2016 (edited) I don't see where 8, 9 or 10 speeds makes for smoother shifts. Luxury cars in the past had 4 or 5 speed trannys that were perfectly smooth. I suppose more gears can keep down the RPM reducing engine noise but I think the pat more gears is for better fuel economy. That's a good point. Additional forward gear ratios alone don't necessarily make for a smoother shifting transmission, as customers of vehicles equipped with the ZF 9HP 9-speed unit from FCA, Honda/Acura, and JLR will acknowledge. Improved fuel efficiency isn't a guarantee either with more forward gear ratios, as the additional shifting elements (clutches and brakes) add weight, complexity, and drag to the transmission. All in all, designing a new generation automatic transmission that's reliable, smooth, responsive, and efficient is a remarkably challenging and expensive task. It's no wonder that GM and Ford are pooling their resources for the upcoming 9-speed transverse and 10-speed longitudinal units. Edited May 17, 2016 by aneekr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted May 17, 2016 Author Share Posted May 17, 2016 (edited) When you're dealing with more power and torque, those gears gives you the opportunity to deliver power to the wheels more smoothy...doesn't necessarily mean it will happen since implementation varies. The reality is that it's going to take years to perfect the tuning of the new transmission in the first place. Right now I'm still wondering how the 6AT is going to work with the 3.0T, seems like a waste of potential right now. Edited May 17, 2016 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 I just tried to elicit a hard shift from our 2016 3.7 MKX with the 6F50 and the only thing that came close was going WOT from a 10 mph rolling start and even that wasn't bad. Either you guys drove bad vehicles or they made great strides with the programming because all the other shifts were buttery smooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted May 18, 2016 Author Share Posted May 18, 2016 I've had 8 cars with this transmission, they are always the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 I've had 8 cars with this transmission, they are always the same. Must be the operator...no issues with the 6F35 or 6F50...the 6F35 has nearly 150K with zero maintenance done to it...which means I'm jinxing myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 It's definitely you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisH Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 It's definitely you. I don't think it's Borg. I've experienced this in our 2011 Edge on very rare occasion. Low speed coasting to a stop and switch to brisk acceleration can cause it. Like I said, it's rare but does happen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 I don't think it's Borg. I've experienced this in our 2011 Edge on very rare occasion. Low speed coasting to a stop and switch to brisk acceleration can cause it. Like I said, it's rare but does happen. Right, it's rare. He's acting like it's extremely common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Right, it's rare. He's acting like it's extremely common. Based on my experience with more than a dozen GM and Ford vehicles with 6F/6T transmissions in model years 2008 - 2014, I agree with BORG. Some abruptness occurred with upshifts and downshifts (mostly in lower gears) on nearly all the vehicles I sampled. Then again, I'm an old geezer and have been unable to drive for a couple years now. As such, I have no experience with Ford 6F and GM 6T transmissions in vehicles MY 2015 or newer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Based on my experience with more than a dozen GM and Ford vehicles with 6F/6T transmissions in model years 2008 - 2014, I agree with BORG. Some abruptness occurred with upshifts and downshifts (mostly in lower gears) on nearly all the vehicles I sampled. Seems like it is more a function of driving style then it is indicative of a problem with the transmission itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Right, it's rare. He's acting like it's extremely common. I've noticed it on almost every Ford car I've driven in the past 5 years with the 6-speed trans. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 I've noticed it on almost every Ford car I've driven in the past 5 years with the 6-speed trans. In normal driving or low speed coasting followed by WOT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted May 18, 2016 Author Share Posted May 18, 2016 (edited) It's not a big issue, I thought I was clear about that, but it's definitely there and can be obnoxious in traffic. They've really sorted it out in the '16 MKX, but just this weekend I notice it was showing up again. It's definitely much worse when the A/C is running. I know the gear count doesn't necessarily make a smoother transmission, but I'm hoping a clean-sheet modern transmission gives them the opportunity to solve these issues. Edited May 18, 2016 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 I'm hoping a clean-sheet modern transmission gives them the opportunity to solve these issues. Let's just hope they don't make it worse. If it's hard to manage 6 gears it will be even harder to manage 9 properly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 I have a 2013 Escape for 2 years now. (Bought 1 year old). I've noticed a few harsh shifts, but nothing major. The only shifts I'd consider "harsh" are at times when I've been coasting, then resume gas. I'm guessing it's a harsh 3-2 shift. But that's it. I haven't noticed any harsh 2-3 shifts. I do occasionally flog it a bit in sport mode. And sometimes in drive mode... The 6 speed Aisin in my 2007 Montego has always shifted smoothly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92LX302 Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 (edited) The 6R80 in my '13 Mustang felt the same. A good performance tune made it a completely different animal, with firmer shifting at WOT and smoother, more precise operation a low speed (cruising around town, parking lot, etc). My 2015 F150 transmission feels more precise stock for stock than the Mustang. Edited May 18, 2016 by 92LX302 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 (edited) In normal driving or low speed coasting followed by WOT? When you're coming to a light and coasting up to it because its red, signal turns green and you were doing about 20-30 then go back to normal throttle to resume your speed. Edited May 18, 2016 by jasonj80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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