New Getrag Mild hybrid technology.

[akirby]

You just turned it into a dedicated platform.

[jpd80]

With batteries underneath the car, there needs to be protection from impact below

and that required more weight from protective coverings..

[transitman]

With batteries underneath the car, there needs to be protection from impact below

and that required more weight from protective coverings..

Unless it's reinforced high strength carbon fiber or aluminum, on a dedicated E platform, which is designed to give additional ground clearance. But of course, that will never be done because it can't be done.

Edited November 3, 2015 by transitman

[jpd80]

Unless it's reinforced high strength carbon fiber or aluminum, on a dedicated E platform, which is designed to give additional ground clearance.

The extra ground clearance alone is not enough assurance on its own to huard against damage to battery packs.

 

But of course, that will never be done because it can't be done.

Because Ford chooses not to do it.

There's no point in a dedicated EV platform when hybrid / PHEV and EV sales are still so fickle...

Edited November 3, 2015 by jpd80

[transitman]

You're probably right. Although, I'm pretty sure Tesla doesn't leave their batteries unprotected, but I could be wrong.

 

Sales are low because Ford and others have not designed and marketed a vehicle that appeals to a wider market, plain and simple.

[Biker16]

OH man

 

You just turned it into a dedicated platform.

 

how? is guess the Escape is on it's own platform too.

 

With batteries underneath the car, there needs to be protection from impact below

and that required more weight from protective coverings..

 

 

maybe but the complaint I heard was that the batteries take up too much space, not that they are vulnerable to crash debris.

 

 

Unless it's reinforced high strength carbon fiber or aluminum, on a dedicated E platform, which is designed to give additional ground clearance. But of course, that will never be done because it can't be done.

 

You have a multiple platforms that can provide additional ground clearance. does the escape, edge or explorer ring a bell?

 

You're probably right. Although, I'm pretty sure Tesla doesn't leave their batteries unprotected, but I could be wrong.

 

Sales are low because Ford and others have not designed and marketed a vehicle that appeals to a wider market, plain and simple.

 

Ford never does anything wrong or misses any opportunity and has the best engineers in the world.

 

[J-150]

 

Ford never does anything wrong or misses any opportunity

Depends on which flavor of Kool aid you're drinking.

[akirby]

Ford electrified current vehicles because it was cheap compared to engineering a dedicated platform. At the time it was a good business decision given all the other things Ford needed to invest in.

 

Nobody is saying Ford shouldn't have a dedicated BEV platform with better battery packaging at some point.

 

Nobody is saying you can't design a battery friendly platform or that you can't use that platform for non-BEVs - you can. But the end result will not be as good as dedicated platforms because of the tradeoffs. Maybe that's ok for some vehicles.

 

Can Ford do a better job of packaging batteries in their current BEVs? Most definitely. But you can't just magically make them disappear.

[jpd80]

You're probably right. Although, I'm pretty sure Tesla doesn't leave their batteries unprotected, but I could be wrong.

Tesla have had their issues with cars catching fire...how soon we forget.

 

 

Sales are low because Ford and others have not designed and marketed a vehicle that appeals to a wider market, plain and simple

If anything pressure from CAFE is driving manufacturers to produce electrified vehicles, not buyers.

Look at Voltec and how that worked out for GM, none of us want Ford making the same mistakes..

[Biker16]

Tesla have had their issues with cars catching fire...how soon we forget.

What was the Cause?

 

Was it related to Debris puncturing the battery?

 

Have we forgotten about the Escape and fusion Eco-boost engine Fires or the Crown Victoria fuel tank issues?

 

If anything pressure from CAFE is driving manufacturers to produce electrified vehicles, not buyers.

Look at Voltec and how that worked out for GM, none of us want Ford making the same mistakes..

The Volt wasn't built on a dedicated platform.

[transitman]

The cause of the Tesla fires was striking objects on the road, which punctured the battery. Tesla immediately raised the clearance and strengthened the under carriage battery guard and there has not been an incident since. These were early build cars, so chalk it up to growing pains.
For the record, I believe the climate is changing due to excess carbon in the atmosphere. I believe Ford can and will build a dedicated platform for E-vehicles. I believe battery placement will be designed to minimize the footprint in the vehicles and it will go under the chassis. I believe energy regeneration/generation will be a part of future technology to increase range in the short term and reduce dependance on a physical charging station. I believe an affordable PHEV will be the predominate choice by consumers. I believe the future is going to include more alternative fuel vehicles and will be dominated by PHEV and EV cars and SUV's. Cars that come out in the next 3-5 years have been in development for 5 years, I believe with the next step in EV technology, it will be what's being researched and developed now and the reasearch will advance with time and in ten years it will be twice as good as what's to come in the next 5 years. Tesla has led the way in vehicle design and battery design and capacity, and I agree that Ford has great R&D and has been and continues to work on taking this to the next stage. Ford and others have to be looking at the designs of Tesla and adapting and modifying for there use.

Edited November 3, 2015 by transitman

[630land]

The German lux brands will put Tesla to sleep once they get Electified cars going. Paraphrased from Pete D of Autoextremist

 

But, i agree the C Max is a f-l-o-p, they should have kept the Hybird Escape. C-Max is n-e-r-d-y, and has the dumbest name for this crowded market. My brother and wife had an Escape Hybird for years and said "wtf" to the C-thingy.

[jpd80]

There's no point racing forward with dedicated EV platforms until newer better battery technology arrives,

that and lower gas prices are really negating the urgency for electrification work beyond add ons.

 

Cars/Utes/light trucks account for at best 10% of global pollution, even if you achieved 100% electrification

and the power came from non-carbon based sources, you're still achieving a relatively small overall reduction.

 

the big polluters are coal fired power plants and heavy road/rail transport, over six times the levels from light vehicles.

If you really care about the environment, those are the areas to zero in on, Nuclear plants, electric trains

for a start followed by hydrogen power for smaller vehicles.

Edited November 5, 2015 by jpd80

[fordmantpw]

There's no point racing forward with dedicated EV platforms until newer better battery technology arrives,

that and lower gas prices are really negating the urgency for electrification work beyond add ons.

 

Cars/Utes/light trucks account for at best 10% of global pollution, even if you achieved 100% electrification

and the power came from non-carbon based sources, you're still achieving a relatively small overall reduction.

 

the big polluters are coal fired power plants and heavy road/rail transport, over six times the levels from light vehicles.

If you really care about the environment, those are the areas to zero in on, Nuclear plants, electric trains

for a start followed by hydrogen power for smaller vehicles.

 

Actually, ocean-going cargo ships are the biggest polluters by far. I don't remember the stats, but it was staggering the amount of pollution they pour into the air compared to cars. Bunker fuel doesn't burn very clean. Your points are very valid, though. Cars are really clean compared to some of the other pollution producing things we rely on every day. In the push to make cars cleaner and more fuel efficient, these other things get overlooked.

 

To add, nuclear plants aren't happening here in the US. The requirements are too strict and the costs too high to make it a worthwhile proposition. I've spent quite a bit of time working at a nuke plant, and they were in the process of getting another unit added. The site was originally built for two plants when it was constructed 30+ years ago. However, the costs associated with licensing, construction, security, storage of spent fuel, etc. are so astronomical, it just doesn't make financial sense. It's sad, because it's really one of the cleanest ways to produce power. Maybe other countries can take the lead (and keep the fuel out of the hands of terrorists).

[mustang_sallad]

There's no point racing forward with dedicated EV platforms until newer better battery technology arrives,

that and lower gas prices are really negating the urgency for electrification work beyond add ons.

 

Cars/Utes/light trucks account for at best 10% of global pollution, even if you achieved 100% electrification

and the power came from non-carbon based sources, you're still achieving a relatively small overall reduction.

 

the big polluters are coal fired power plants and heavy road/rail transport, over six times the levels from light vehicles.

If you really care about the environment, those are the areas to zero in on, Nuclear plants, electric trains

for a start followed by hydrogen power for smaller vehicles.

 

Or how about all of the above? Here we have commercially available products from a dozen different manufacturers that are getting close to profitable, that have gone from a market share of essentially zero to close to 1% over the past 5 years (EVs now outsell Lincoln), and range improving by a factor of 2 over one model cycle, and you're saying we should just walk away from this because it'll "only" address 10% of global pollution? Yes, we should push for less coal (actually already happening) and we should electrify heavy transport, but why does that mean we shouldn't electrify light duty vehicles if it's becoming such a low hanging fruit? That's like saying it's okay to blow 10% of your pay check on junk food because 60% of your pay goes to your mortgage.

[jpd80]

 

Or how about all of the above? Here we have commercially available products from a dozen different manufacturers that are getting close to profitable, that have gone from a market share of essentially zero to close to 1% over the past 5 years (EVs now outsell Lincoln), and range improving by a factor of 2 over one model cycle, and you're saying we should just walk away from this because it'll "only" address 10% of global pollution?

No, read my first paragraph:

"There's no point racing forward with dedicated EV platforms until newer better battery technology arrives,

that and lower gas prices are really negating the urgency for electrification work beyond add ons."

 

That statement is addressed to people on this thread who are advocating that Ford develop a dedicated EV platform,

while that is a noble endeavor, the better more low hanging fruit is slow conversion of more vehicles to hybrids,

be that passive (stop-start) to more active versions right up to PHEV but do them on shared conventional platforms

to keep the costs under control until battery technology matures to a point where the leap to EVs is a smaller jump.

 

.Yes, we should push for less coal (actually already happening) and we should electrify heavy transport, but why does that mean we shouldn't electrify light duty vehicles if it's becoming such a low hanging fruit? That's like saying it's okay to blow 10% of your pay check on junk food because 60% of your pay goes to your mortgage.

 

No, it's more like living on mostly junk food and ordering diet sodas that are twice the price...

 

As part of that discussion it is important to keep the emission reduction in perspective and rather than

simply expecting motor companies to rush forward before the support systems develop and mature.

That's the key here, I'm not against electrification, Ford and GM and others will switch over gradually

as the technology gathers pace.

Edited November 6, 2015 by jpd80

[jpd80]

The Volt wasn't built on a dedicated platform.

Exactly. and how did those early haughty predictions of 100K per year sales work out for GM?

[Fgts]

Exactly. and how did those early haughty predictions of 100K per year sales work out for GM?

The Volt was/is built on the Cruze platform and don't forget Volt is GM EV/hybrid program.

[Biker16]

Exactly. and how did those early haughty predictions of 100K per year sales work out for GM?

 

Yet the success of the Prius shows what can happen with a dedicated hybrid vehicle.

[jpd80]

The Volt was/is built on the Cruze platform and don't forget Volt is GM EV/hybrid program.

That's what I'm saying. GM spent a fortune on Volt with high expectations that were not realized by platform sharing.

Ford needs to be careful about how far it goes with add ons like PHEV, the distinction GM makes with volt is interesing,

they call Volt an EV with range extension.... maybe going to that extent was too far in front of the available technology

and more importantly what buyers wanted to pay..($199/mth lease with no deposit???)

[jpd80]

 

Yet the success of the Prius shows what can happen with a dedicated hybrid vehicle.

By one company with dedication of 18 years.

There's no guarantee that Ford, GM or Chrysler could copy those vehicles and get exactly the same result,

there's a long build up of both production experience and technology feedback loop happening with Prius

Edited November 6, 2015 by jpd80

[akirby]

From a consumer perspective a Volt is just a plug-in hybrid with a longer than average range. Full electrics have twice the range and some were dirt cheap (Leafs e.g.). Regular hybrids that don't have to be plugged in are more popular.

 

It's also a sedan and not a hatchback which doesn't help.

 

It's sort of stuck in between hybrids and EVs. My neighbor loves his - he has a 50 mile one-way commute and recharges at work. He buys a tank of gas every 4 months or so. Can't argue with that.

[jpd80]

From a consumer perspective a Volt is just a plug-in hybrid with a longer than average range. Full electrics have twice the range and some were dirt cheap (Leafs e.g.). Regular hybrids that don't have to be plugged in are more popular.

 

It's also a sedan and not a hatchback which doesn't help.

 

It's sort of stuck in between hybrids and EVs. My neighbor loves his - he has a 50 mile one-way commute and recharges at work. He buys a tank of gas every 4 months or so. Can't argue with that.

100% agree, which is why Ford needs to be careful how it proceeds with electrification,

Volt is attracting customers that want low leasing costs over two years and by anecdote,

mostly use the electric range --- it's not really what GM had intended for Volt's buyer profile.

 

I don't believe a cookie cutter copy of Prius would work either - Ford needs to choose

vehicles that work for it and the customer base... Utilities like Escape, Edge and Explorer

may be more fertile ground.

[mustang_sallad]

100% agree, which is why Ford needs to be careful how it proceeds with electrification,

Volt is attracting customers that want low leasing costs over two years and by anecdote,

mostly use the electric range --- it's not really what GM had intended for Volt's buyer profile.

 

I don't believe a cookie cutter copy of Prius would work either - Ford needs to choose

vehicles that work for it and the customer base... Utilities like Escape, Edge and Explorer

may be more fertile ground.

 

Seriously, I really can't understand why none of the Big 3 have cashed in on a PHEV SUV. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV sells like crazy in Europe and is finally coming to North America next spring. I saw one of the PHEV Escape prototypes back in the day, can't help but feel like that would have been a hit if they had gone through with it instead of the C-Max. Maybe we'll see something at NAIAS? Meanwhile, the high end SUV segment is filling up with PHEVs with <20 miles of range (X5, Cayenne, XC90, Q7...)

[jpd80]

 

Seriously, I really can't understand why none of the Big 3 have cashed in on a PHEV SUV. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV sells like crazy in Europe and is finally coming to North America next spring. I saw one of the PHEV Escape prototypes back in the day, can't help but feel like that would have been a hit if they had gone through with it instead of the C-Max. Maybe we'll see something at NAIAS? Meanwhile, the high end SUV segment is filling up with PHEVs with <20 miles of range (X5, Cayenne, XC90, Q7...)

Yeah, I think we agree on this, Utilities are where PHEVs have an opportunity to shine,

the price increase is easier to justify as the benefits are more apparent to buyers.