Len_A Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/pope-francis-weapons-manufacturers-cant-call-themselves-christian-n379551 I have some neighbors who are politically very conservative Catholics, and Pope Francis is giving them fits and major heartburn. As the product of a Jesuit education, I am highly amused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Just because he's the Pope doesn't make him right and in this case he happens to be completely wrong. I'm betting all the Protestants are having a good laugh about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Does this also apply to the manufacturers that sell to Vatican security? And the police of the local towns he visits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Does this also apply to the manufacturers that sell to Vatican security? And the police of the local towns he visits? It's easy to be an absolutist about firearms when you live in the Vatican with armed security and completely removed from the everyday life of the average person. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Where did Jesus' disciples get their swords from just before he was arrested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Where did Jesus' disciples get their swords from just before he was arrested? Even more to the point, were it not for the sword and later the firearm Christianity would have long sense been wiped off the planet by the forces arrayed against it. The notion that it can somehow survive without weapons is stunningly mypoic. We don't live in that world, even if the Pope doesn't want to admit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 32K people die every year in traffic accidents. Should we ban cars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) Where did Jesus' disciples get their swords from just before he was arrested? Jesus also told them to put their swords away, did he not? He also told them to 'turn the other cheek.' That being said, I feel you can still be Christian and use weapons for self defense. Using said weapons with the sole intention to harm others? Not quite. And so many people take one's words (whether it's the pope, POTUS, or any politician) and run with it, not knowing the full meaning or intention of that person's words. Just because we don't agree with what a person says doesn't mean they aren't correct. Edited June 23, 2015 by fordmantpw 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 32K people die every year in traffic accidents. Should we ban cars? He's not talking about banning guns here. That's the POTUS, not the pope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) He's not talking about banning guns here. That's the POTUS, not the pope. Regardless of that. His condemnation of the firearms industry is a condemnation of the very industry that has kept Christianity from being wiped out by those who would gladly kill every Christian they could find over the last 200 or so years. That is the real hypocrisy here. Edited June 23, 2015 by BlackHorse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Regardless of that. His condemnation of the firearms industry is a condemnation of the very industry that has kept Christianity from being wiped out by those who would gladly kill every Christian they could find over the last 200 or so years. That is the real hypocrisy here. Newflash: weapons does not just refer to firearms. I haven't seen the exact quote, but from what I have seen, he was referring to 'weapons', not 'firearms'. He was referring to wars, bombs, etc. When I think of 'weapons', I generally thing of bombs, not firearms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) Newflash: weapons does not just refer to firearms. I haven't seen the exact quote, but from what I have seen, he was referring to 'weapons', not 'firearms'. He was referring to wars, bombs, etc. When I think of 'weapons', I generally thing of bombs, not firearms. The same still holds true. The weapons industry in general has kept Christianity from falling prey to those who would have destroyed it. That is just reality. It is as much a reality for the Christians as it is for the Jewish state. Modern day Christianity is to preoccupied with being PC and flower power, lovey dovey. That's fine if you want to subscribe to that interpretation or belief system. But the reality is that from time to time Christians and Jews have had to defend themselves with really powerful weapons else they would have been destroyed. Furthermore we still live in a world where there are plenty of people who would gladly slaughter every Christian they can get their hands on. The Pope can be a sheep if he wants to, I will not. To deny or denounce that is flat out wrong. Edited June 23, 2015 by BlackHorse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 The same still holds true. The weapons industry in general has kept Christianity from falling prey to those who would have destroyed it. That is just reality. It is as much a reality for the Christians as it is for the Jewish state. Modern day Christianity is to preoccupied with being PC and flower power, lovey dovey. That's fine if you want to subscribe to that interpretation or belief system. But the reality is that from time to time Christians and Jews have had to defend themselves with really powerful weapons else they would have been destroyed. Furthermore we still live in a world where there are plenty of people who would gladly slaughter every Christian they can get their hands on. The Pope can be a sheep if he wants to, I will not. To deny or denounce that is flat out wrong. Think about this for a second: If nobody made those weapons, there would be no need to defend from those weapons. Therefore, if NOBODY ever produced those weapons, we could all live in peace. Then everyone could live without fear of these weapons and everyone could live more 'Christian.' To keep others from living as a Christian is un-Christian. So, producing these weapons is un-Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Think about this for a second: If nobody made those weapons, there would be no need to defend from those weapons. Therefore, if NOBODY ever produced those weapons, we could all live in peace. Then everyone could live without fear of these weapons and everyone could live more 'Christian.' To keep others from living as a Christian is un-Christian. So, producing these weapons is un-Christian. Yes, we could also rename to the world to Fantasy Utopia. The world you have described has never existed and will never exist. It would be nice but it will never happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Yes, we could also rename to the world to Fantasy Utopia. The world you have described has never existed and will never exist. It would be nice but it will never happen. Never said it would. Never will one without weapons, or without persecution, or without... The number of TRUE Christians in this world is also very small. See the correlation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) Never said it would. Never will one without weapons, or without persecution, or without... The number of TRUE Christians in this world is also very small. See the correlation? No I don't. I see the world as it is, not as we would like it to be. Edited June 23, 2015 by BlackHorse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 No I don't. I see the world as it is, not as we would like it to be. That prevents you from seeing a correlation? OK then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) That prevents you from seeing a correlation? OK then. There is no correlation because being Christian does not also mean we would have a world without weapons or violence. One needs only to look to the Prostestants and the Catholics to realize that. Furthermore being Christian does not automatically predispose one to being "the good guy" who would never hurt a fly while all others are incapable of such behavior. In theory it is fully possible for everyone to get along and not partake in violence and also be "not" Christians. But the reality is that the world has never been that way and never will be that way. We will always need weapons because there will always be those who would find it easier to kill us than to live in peaceful coexistence. Edited June 23, 2015 by BlackHorse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Jesus also told them to put their swords away, did he not? He also told them to 'turn the other cheek.' He told them to put their swords away, AFTER they cut the centurion's ear off. Prior to that he told them to sell their cloaks and buy swords, iirc. (no, that is not suggesting that all persons should do this) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 He told them to put their swords away, AFTER they cut the centurion's ear off. Prior to that he told them to sell their cloaks and buy swords, iirc. (no, that is not suggesting that all persons should do this) Oh good, becuase I don't have any cloaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Point being, the swords served a purpose, and someone had to make/sell them. If the Pope wants to call them sinners, fine. All are. But, it would seem strange to render them ineligible to call themselves Christians, when they served the Lord's purpose. Just as (you pointed out earlier) the Pope is protected by armed guards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Point being, the swords served a purpose, and someone had to make/sell them. If the Pope wants to call them sinners, fine. All are. But, it would seem strange to render them ineligible to call themselves Christians, when they served the Lord's purpose. Just as (you pointed out earlier) the Pope is protected by armed guards. I agree, I was just being a smart ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 There is no correlation because being Christian does not also mean we would have a world without weapons or violence. One needs only to look to the Prostestants and the Catholics to realize that. Furthermore being Christian does not automatically predispose one to being "the good guy" who would never hurt a fly while all others are incapable of such behavior. In theory it is fully possible for everyone to get along and not partake in violence and also be "not" Christians. But the reality is that the world has never been that way and never will be that way. We will always need weapons because there will always be those who would find it easier to kill us than to live in peaceful coexistence. If EVERYONE acted like a TRUE Christian, there would be no violence. Period. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 He told them to put their swords away, AFTER they cut the centurion's ear off. Prior to that he told them to sell their cloaks and buy swords, iirc. (no, that is not suggesting that all persons should do this) Well, but he removed his sword from his sheath to cut off the ear (IIRC). I don't remember the part about the cloaks. Point being, the swords served a purpose, and someone had to make/sell them. If the Pope wants to call them sinners, fine. All are. But, it would seem strange to render them ineligible to call themselves Christians, when they served the Lord's purpose. Just as (you pointed out earlier) the Pope is protected by armed guards. I agree. Christians still sin, and I don't think self-defense prevents you from being a Christian. I don't think it's even a sin (according to the Catholic teaching I'm familiar with). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 If EVERYONE acted like a TRUE Christian, there would be no violence. Period. Again, that is a world that never existed and never will. It is at best a nobel and lofty idea that has never been put to practice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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