More fuel for the Fire for Ford's Future

[rkisler]

Could someone explain this to me? Doesn't Ford control the management of Mazda. How could Mazda want to buy its way out of Ford ownership when Ford is running Mazda?

 

I wouldn't put much stock in rumors that Mazda will "buy its way out of Ford ownership"

 

Ford owns 1/3 of Mazda. The other major influence is Sumitomo with whom Ford has a friendly relationhip -- it was Sumitomo that "convinced" Mazda to accept Ford management and to up the ownership from 25% to 33%. Nothing will happen with Mazda unless Ford and Sumitomo were to agree.

 

The relationship right now is benefiting both parties. Ford is getting decent Mazda designed product. Mazda is probably too small to go it alone and is benefiting from Ford utilization of those platforms by getting increased economies of scale. Mazda is able to sell platform derivative product to import intenders that would never consider a Ford. Like any relationships, I'm sure not everyone is happy all the time, but I think the Mazda relationship is vital to Ford right now.

[rkisler]

[quote name='matthewq4b' date='Aug 23 2006, 08:33 PM

[rkisler]

Well Maybe some DC2 derivtives are in the works. What could be built on a derived DC2 platform.

 

Well for one a sedan. V8 RWD sedan. One is currently in production that is older than the Hills. In a facility

capable of 500K that is being under utilized. STAP could be the awswer a DC2 Derived GM CV replacement or possibly Just add the Stang to the Output at STAP, yes it would require an investment to flex the plant But it would put all the RWD cars in one production location. Flexing it would not be a huge issue. Not like your building different drive layouts in one plant the line would just need to be modified to handle unit consturction and the V6 none of which would be that big an issue.

 

IF Ford could get Mazda to buy their Half of AAI it would in part or in whole fund the move and upgrades to STAP.

 

In the long run it would work out good. Ford is rasing the capacity at one of it's most under utilized plants there by cutting costs. And Giving Mazda more capacity for increased NA sales thus increasing revenue. It will both save Ford money and make them money.

 

Just an idea to toss about.

 

Matthew

 

Matthew

 

Good thoughts, but I don't think this is likely for a number of reasons:

If I were Mazda, and needed extra capacity, I wouldn't want to be stuck with AAI with a questionable work force. I would actually want Ford to take the plant and get the hell out of Michigan and try to leave the UAW behind.

 

St. Thomas is geared toward one thing and one thing only; making a large quantity of CV/GM on a single wheelbase. This plant is old and hard tooled and there is no such thing as flexibility in St. Thomas. Putting a new platform in the plant while the Panther is still there likely would be prohibitively expensive.

 

Ford is making other moves in Canada that will shore up employment for the losses in St. Thomas -- new Edge/MKx and D3 dervatives in Oakville and the Ontario Truck Plant which is across the street. I don't see Canada getting the next big plant project, but who knows....

 

Of course D2c could spawn derivatives, but substantial modifications would be required including IRS. The tearup might be so large that you might not have much left from the D2c. So if you need a RWD entry and you're moving into a new plant anyway, you might take a fresh start. Which could ultimately include the Mustang...or not.

 

With so many problems to fix, I just don't see AAI as being at the top of the list right now. Basically the plant is pretty full and it's working. So why mess with it?

[Footballfan]

Mazda stated several months ago that they will make a decision in 2007 whether to build a new plant in the US or buy one of Ford's plants. I think the most likely sceneario would be that Mazda would buy the remaining half of AAI, and the Mustang would be moved to another area plant. Mazda's North American headquarters are in Flat Rock as is their inland port.

[RichardJensen]

Mazda stated several months ago that they will make a decision in 2007 whether to build a new plant in the US or buy one of Ford's plants. I think the most likely sceneario would be that Mazda would buy the remaining half of AAI, and the Mustang would be moved to another area plant. Mazda's North American headquarters are in Flat Rock as is their inland port.

What do you pair the Mustang up with, to generate a whole plant's worth of capacity? I'm not optimistic about a fleet of vehicles off the D2C. You might be able to build a few decent products, but I don't think you can use much of D2C aft of the firewall. IRS would be a must, and a longer wheelbase for almost any other application. While the powerpack is acceptable, as well as the front suspension, the rest of the platform is just too Mustang.

 

Overflow CD3 capacity is a possibility, but I don't think it wise for Ford to stretch Fusion volume, or even Fusion/Edge volume out another 80k units, and that's a minimum amount of volume Ford needs to make moving the Mustang make sense.

[matthewq4b]

Matthew

 

Good thoughts, but I don't think this is likely for a number of reasons:

If I were Mazda, and needed extra capacity, I wouldn't want to be stuck with AAI with a questionable work force. I would actually want Ford to take the plant and get the hell out of Michigan and try to leave the UAW behind.

 

St. Thomas is geared toward one thing and one thing only; making a large quantity of CV/GM on a single wheelbase. This plant is old and hard tooled and there is no such thing as flexibility in St. Thomas. Putting a new platform in the plant while the Panther is still there likely would be prohibitively expensive.

 

Ford is making other moves in Canada that will shore up employment for the losses in St. Thomas -- new Edge/MKx and D3 dervatives in Oakville and the Ontario Truck Plant which is across the street. I don't see Canada getting the next big plant project, but who knows....

 

Of course D2c could spawn derivatives, but substantial modifications would be required including IRS. The tearup might be so large that you might not have much left from the D2c. So if you need a RWD entry and you're moving into a new plant anyway, you might take a fresh start. Which could ultimately include the Mustang...or not.

 

 

With so many problems to fix, I just don't see AAI as being at the top of the list right now. Basically the plant is pretty full and it's working. So why mess with it?

 

 

Some of this true but STAP is not stuck to one whell base as the CV Panther

has more than one. Engine installation in the CV is the same as the stang, bottom installation. Most all the drive line componts are similar.

 

And the one advantage STAP has over US based plants is lower labour costs. Their are no huge Medical plans for Ford to carry. Ford is coughing up some 200 Mill for STAP no one yet knows where it is going. Obviously it is not going in to the Panthers just to chop them a couple years later. Most say it is going in to the facility it's self.

 

STAP is a big question mark. It is out dated but owes Ford nothing every thing has long since been paid for. The faciltiy is currently running about 25% of full capacity. Either Ford will have to shutter STAP or invest in it for the future.

 

Rember all the machinery from Wixom (LS and TC) is going to have to go some where.

Might as well move it to STAP. Im sure the TC LS assy line equip could be easily modifyied to handle the Stang the TC CV and GM.

 

If the Panthers are going to be chopped for 2010 0r 2012 there are 2-4 production years left.

 

If Ford does build a new Full size RWD (which is most likly going to happen) it will definetly be a Unit car.

The most likly spot for it's production is STAP with a Large unit RWD in production the logical and sensible thing to do is to move the other Unit RWD's to the same facility.

 

In a 4-5 year time frame it will give Ford enough time to build a flexible V8 RWD Unit chassis.

That could breed the basis for the Stang and the full size units.

 

Of course this is all speculation. But the theory makes sence from a cost and production stand point.

 

Eventually Ford is going to have to replace the current Stang. It might as well be on a Chassis that can breed other RWD cars.

 

The question no one knows is if Ford is going to follow the lead of DCX and GMC and recomit to RWD.

 

Until that happens this is all just a shot in the dark.

 

If Ford does recomit to RWD then is it a pretty fair chance all the RWD cars will be built at STAP including the Stang. Currently the RWD cars account for almost 300K sales more than enough to justify moving them all under one roof and refitting a plant to handle just them.

 

It solves the capacity issue at AAI for Mazda and solves the production issues for the Stang. Over all it would lower the production costs for all involved including the Stang.

 

 

Matthew

[RichardJensen]

Who says they need to produce anything on the same capacity. Or even produce the Mustang with another car? DTP was set up to have the flexibility to produce 9 different vehicles off of 3 different platforms. I am not saying it is going back to Dearborn, but if they can do it there, they can do it anywhere.

It would reduce Ford's reliance on the F-Series.

[Bluecon]

Some of this true but STAP is not stuck to one whell base as the CV Panther

has more than one. Engine installation in the CV is the same as the stang, bottom installation. Most all the drive line componts are similar.

 

And the one advantage STAP has over US based plants is lower labour costs. Their are no huge Medical plans for Ford to carry. Ford is coughing up some 200 Mill for STAP no one yet knows where it is going. Obviously it is not going in to the Panthers just to chop them a couple years later. Most say it is going in to the facility it's self.

 

STAP is a big question mark. It is out dated but owes Ford nothing every thing has long since been paid for. The faciltiy is currently running about 25% of full capacity. Either Ford will have to shutter STAP or invest in it for the future.

 

Rember all the machinery from Wixom (LS and TC) is going to have to go some where.

Might as well move it to STAP. Im sure the TC LS assy line equip could be easily modifyied to handle the Stang the TC CV and GM.

 

If the Panthers are going to be chopped for 2010 0r 2012 there are 2-4 production years left.

 

If Ford does build a new Full size RWD (which is most likly going to happen) it will definetly be a Unit car.

The most likly spot for it's production is STAP with a Large unit RWD in production the logical and sensible thing to do is to move the other Unit RWD's to the same facility.

 

In a 4-5 year time frame it will give Ford enough time to build a flexible V8 RWD Unit chassis.

That could breed the basis for the Stang and the full size units.

 

Of course this is all speculation. But the theory makes sence from a cost and production stand point.

 

Eventually Ford is going to have to replace the current Stang. It might as well be on a Chassis that can breed other RWD cars.

 

The question no one knows is if Ford is going to follow the lead of DCX and GMC and recomit to RWD.

 

Until that happens this is all just a shot in the dark.

 

If Ford does recomit to RWD then is it a pretty fair chance all the RWD cars will be built at STAP including the Stang. Currently the RWD cars account for almost 300K sales more than enough to justify moving them all under one roof and refitting a plant to handle just them.

 

It solves the capacity issue at AAI for Mazda and solves the production issues for the Stang. Over all it would lower the production costs for all involved including the Stang.

Matthew

Way back in the 80's STAP built the Escort along with the CV/GM.

However the CV/GM has frame and the Mustang is unibody.

When you build a vehicle with a frame the frame starts upside down and the axles, mufflers, brake lines, etc. are installed. Then the frame is flipped and the motor, etc. is installed and the body is dropped on top.

You would need to retool the whole plant to build the Mustang and the CV/GM together. Not likely to happen.

They won't move old equipment from Wixom unless to Russia or China.

 

And the Edge will not makeup for all the job losses in Ontario despite the health plan. The Windsor Casting plant is gone and Essex Engine also, as is the 3rd shift at Windsor Assembly Plant. When Oakville starts running again it will be much more automated and require fewer people.

[xr7g428]

Mustang could have sold many, many, more units in 05 had there been more capacity. What would the numbers look like if they had sold an additional 50 to 100K Mustangs? If you doubt this, talk to any one who tried to buy an 05 GT for sticker. I know, I bought 2 and would have bought more. I was deluged by people who wanted to know where I got my Mustang. Even now, New GT's are still not common everywhere. (Yes I know they are a dime a dozen in Michigan, so what if I lived in that economy I wouldn't be buying a bicycle).

 

In addition to lack of sales, Ford suffered incredible damage to customer relations by building so short of demand. Go back and read all of the threads about the allocation system and unhappy customers that felt that Ford was culpable for the additional markup dealers were demanding.

 

At the core of it is the really dark side of Fords problem: even if they have a hit, they can't bump the production without generating huge legacy costs. They are no longer scale-able. They could have priced the Mustang GT $2K higher and put the money in Fords pocket instead of the dealers. A home run that didn't score.

 

However, Ford management knows this. they need a bunch of solid singles, not a home run. Look for a Lincoln version of the Mustang chassis (new LS coupe?) and a new Mercury Cougar. In combination with a successful Edge and a revamped 500, Ford might have the right mix to keep things manageable.

[J-150]

There is plenty of capacity. There are two flex plants within 50 miles of AAI. One had more than 20 weeks of downtime last year. Why was the Mustang not flexed there? Why is Ford investing in this technology and not utilizing it?

 

 

by restricting capacity, Ford was able to keep demand up and more importantly, the margins.

 

If they made 400,000 Mustangs in year 1, 1/3 would be sold with large incentives. So why bother?

 

Also, demand tapers off. Why develop 400,000 production capacity for a car that will settle into half of that after a few years.

[silvrsvt]

Not to mention its pretty easy to get a Mustang off the lots these days..the demand has been more or less sasifited now. Ford is offereing 0-72 month financing on them for crying out loud..first time any incentives besides End of year clear out sales has the Mustang gotten any form of incentives

[linemonkey]

Well this is jist of the whole thread here:

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index...?showtopic=5757

 

Plus where the heck is the Mustang going to be built at if it moves?

 

PS the Employee board is really bad...with some of the rumors swirling around there...feel bad for some of them but my second hand experance with people who work at Ford, rumors are part of the deal with working at assembly plant.

i guess maybe the employee forums are full of rumours because of lack of actual facts or solid information being given to us,i am sure we are no more "in the dark " than the salaried employees, but still would be nice to get some real info on whats goin on...moral is down the toilets in all plants , by the sounds of things....can't be good for anyone since we are the ones who build the cars

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Well, a "big change" at AAI would also coincide well with the rumors of what's being done to the Mustang in the 08-09 model year time frame. If they are doing something more significant than a freshening or mild reskin, like perhaps moving it to a more flxible platform, then that would be an ideal time for them to relocate production of the vehicle. If Ford chooses to make that platform VERY flexible, say, stretchable to D size or larger, possibly sport CUV capable, then you have the basis for a whole slew of vehicles that could keep one high capacity plant humming. You'd definitely have to have a large facility (at least 2 or three seperate lines with about 100-150K anual capacity each) and you'd need significant investment in equipment upgrades (100s of millions easily).

 

That all fits with STAP getting the stang and derivatives in the future. The Panther will be kicked to the curb for a new, flexible RWD architecture that was pioneered in a new Stang. Wouldn't be the first time that Ford has gutted a body shell and redone the platform entirely under a shell that looks almost exactly the same (Hmm, where have we seen that? Oh yes, Explorer, Expedition, etc)