silvrsvt Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Well there's been rumors over on Ford Employee Board that Mazda is looking at pulling out of AAI for various reasons...which begs the question, if they do, what will Ford do with that roughly 100K extra unit capacity that will be Freed up if the Mazda 6 gets produced in Japan? Does Mazda even have the capacity in Japan to build the car? I guess the rumors of Mazda building or taking over one of Ford's plants is good as dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I doubt this is true, but even if it is .. Ford can use a highly flexible overflow plant for the Fusion and possibly next year for the Edge ... Ford could also use a US built Fusion, and people like Pioneer will be quick to point out. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 With Mazda's sales momentum growing positively, and the next gen Mazda6 growing a bit in size, it would seem logical that they may be considering moving to a larger assembly facility. The excess capacity at AAI, if we're lucky, may be used to give us a Lincoln and/or Mercury coupe to pick up some of the slack. With the flex capability at AAI, it would be a snap. Doesn't sound like a BAD thing to me personally, assuming Ford has product planned to take up the excess capacity if Mazda should leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Ford has enough control over Mazda that they may no be allowed to leave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Ford has enough control over Mazda that they may no be allowed to leave That door can swing the other way too. If Ford has a couple of D2C coupes up their sleeve, they may WANT them to leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) It's just a rumor, so there might be nothing to it at all. OTOH <just for fun> what if Ford has determined a way to utilize the Mustang chassis as the basis of a new family of RWD vehicles? Say, a Ford sedan, Lincoln sedan, and Lincoln coupe? Those products could surely take up 100,000 units of production! Edited August 23, 2006 by Harley Lover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron W. Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 It's just a rumor, so there might be nothing to it at all. OTOH <just for fun> what if Ford has determined a way to utilize the Mustang chassis as the basis of a new family of RWD vehicles? Say, a Ford sedan, Lincoln sedan, and Lincoln coupe? Those products could surely take up 100,000 units of production! What was the name of that old song, Hot Rod Lincoln.... :happy feet: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Where will the CX-9 be built? Maybe Mazda will take over an idled Ford factory or build an all new factory and build the next gen 6 and CX-9 there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 Where will the CX-9 be built? Maybe Mazda will take over an idled Ford factory or build an all new factory and build the next gen 6 and CX-9 there. Japan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 What was the name of that old song, Hot Rod Lincoln.... :happy feet: Commander Cody I believe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Don't forget that Mazda is half owner of AAI, and has been reluctant to leave as AAI is their only production facility in North America. From a plant perspective, this plant has struggled and never been even close to capacity until recently. Now, with Mustang and Mazda 6, the plant is finally making money. If this rumor were true and Mazda were to produce all the M6's in Hofu, the least investment approach would be CD3 derivatives (sedans or coupes, or maybe a smaller crossover but not the Edge which is not really a CD3). The plant actually has two assembly lines contained within a single plant. There is some flexiblity of Mustang and 6's, but not infinite because you run into constraints on the Mustang line. Any move to all D2c for AAI would be expensive but not impossible. I don't think you'll ever see the D2c as a Lincoln. Platform is not up to snuff for a luxury entry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Don't forget that Mazda is half owner of AAI, and has been reluctant to leave as AAI is their only production facility in North America. From a plant perspective, this plant has struggled and never been even close to capacity until recently. Now, with Mustang and Mazda 6, the plant is finally making money. Wasn't Mazda considering building a plant in Canada for C1 production? Whatever happened with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 If this rumor were true and Mazda were to produce all the M6's in Hofu, the least investment approach would be CD3 derivatives (sedans or coupes, or maybe a smaller crossover but not the Edge which is not really a CD3). The plant actually has two assembly lines contained within a single plant. There is some flexiblity of Mustang and 6's, but not infinite because you run into constraints on the Mustang line. Any move to all D2c for AAI would be expensive but not impossible. The CX-9 is a streched out Edge platform, which is based on the CD3, like it or not. I don't think you'll ever see the D2c as a Lincoln. Platform is not up to snuff for a luxury entry. Why not? You forget the Mark VII was on the Fox platform. The D2C or S197 had some developmental work for IRS at the outset (popluar belief) so fitting an IRS to it wouldn't be an issue, or as much a kudge like the old SN95 Cobra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 You forget the Mark VII was on the Fox platform. But I don't. The Mk VII looked nice and was better than the Eldorado, and that's the end of it. It was a competitor to the 6 only by aspiration, and effusive magazine hype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildosvt Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Actually, Someone has this whole thing mixed up. I know someone who is most certainly in the know, And he stated CLEARLY Ford wants to pull the Mustang from AAI. Mazda wants more production capacity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 The CX-9 is a streched out Edge platform, which is based on the CD3, like it or not. I was commenting on AAI's ability to produce other vehicles, and my point was that if Mazda were to boogy from AAI, fitting Edge into the plant wouldn't be so easy, but CD3 sedans and maybe a CD3 crossover (smaller and lower than Edge) would work. There is a relationship between the Edge and CX-9, but the relationship of each of these vehicles with the CD3 sedans is much more tenuous. It depends on one's definition of "platform", but in this case, it suits Ford to say they are the same platform because it makes everyone feel good (most especially Wall Street). Of course, the design philosophy is similar as both were designed by Mazda. I don't know all the technical details, but the Edge has a common powertrain, and I would hope a common mounting strategy and accessory drive. This is not insignificant; it reduces complexity in the powertrain plant. But, in other areas, Edge is quite unique from Fusion. It has a unique front and rear suspension. I'm guessing that none of the underbody or other structural metal is common (and it's not just stretch; I'm guessing that the Edge uses ladder construction which is different than the sedans and has a unique build sequence). The upper body is completely unique. The interior is totally unique. Maybe there is some sharing in the climate control. So, is it a CD3 derivative? Not in my book, but if that's what Ford wants to call it, it's OK by me. Why not? You forget the Mark VII was on the Fox platform. The D2C or S197 had some developmental work for IRS at the outset (popluar belief) so fitting an IRS to it wouldn't be an issue, or as much a kudge like the old SN95 Cobra Some of my reasons are circumstantial. I think we can assume that there are RWD aficionados inside Ford, and that D2c was fully examined for Lincoln (probably repeatedly) when it was apparent that the LS was going away. If D2c would have made the cut, I think we would have seen something more definitive by now or the MKS would have been a D2c sedan. As for product requirements, even if you assume a coupe, totaly unique sheetmetal and interior is a given. I agree with your assumption that Lincoln would require IRS. Although it might have been studied, there is no IRS on Mustang to draw from. So you either end up jamming in an expensive, compromised IRS into the same area the live axle takes up (like you mentioned on SN95) or completely tear up the rear end of the car for a proper IRS ($$$). Other questions would be: is the front suspension good enough for a luxury customer? Is the NVH/sound quality good enough? Is there enough electrical capacity? What would be the effect of additional weight (for higher feature content)? Do we need to stretch to get a bigger back seat? Some of these questions might be easy, but others could be killers. Maybe all the product concerns above could be addressed, but now you need a place to build it. AAI D2c Mustang line is full. If Mazda were to vacate the other half, then you could add another D2c body shop or maybe expand the present shop. But, if you want to invest in a luxury coupe, then volume is likely to be very limited and won't fill up the other half of the plant. So even if the product concerns could be addressed, I don't see any way a D2c Lincoln coupe would make financial sense. If you want more D2c volume, I think a much better case could be made for a Cougar -- higher volume potential and fewer required modifications (but still totally unique sheetmetal). Personally, I think Mazda leaving AAI is just a rumor, nothing more. One way they might leave is if Ford had something to trade, but I don't see anything Ford has to offer that they would want. If I were in Mazda's shoes, I would only leave if I thought I could get paid a fair price for 1/2 of AAI, establish a new plant in a red state and shed the UAW, but I think it's probably too late for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyb82 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I thought Ford controlled Mazda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wescoent Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I see this as nothing but good news. This means a vast catalog of RWD Ford offerings can move to production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Actually, Someone has this whole thing mixed up. I know someone who is most certainly in the know, And he stated CLEARLY Ford wants to pull the Mustang from AAI. Mazda wants more production capacity. We have a winner :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) Actually, Someone has this whole thing mixed up. I know someone who is most certainly in the know, And he stated CLEARLY Ford wants to pull the Mustang from AAI. Mazda wants more production capacity. Well this is jist of the whole thread here: I've heard these rumours as well. Especially the Mazda pullout due to the quality issues and the money Mazda lost last year (88 million $ as mentioned in the townhall meeting last week). We were told that AAI leads all North American Ford plants in absenteeism and restrictions. What a great distinction. Also heard we have about 440 people we need to shed. http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index...?showtopic=5757 Plus where the heck is the Mustang going to be built at if it moves? PS the Employee board is really bad...with some of the rumors swirling around there...feel bad for some of them but my second hand experance with people who work at Ford, rumors are part of the deal with working at assembly plant. Edited August 23, 2006 by silvrsvt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue II Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 OT but maybe related. A few months ago a rumor was going around that Mazda wanted to but it's way out of Ford ownership. Anyone hear anthing like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Actually, Someone has this whole thing mixed up. I know someone who is most certainly in the know, And he stated CLEARLY Ford wants to pull the Mustang from AAI. Mazda wants more production capacity. I don't quite get this. There is virtually no financial reason to pull production from one plant to another -- why would you reinvest to get exactly what you had to begin with; that's money wasted that could have been spent on product. Even if Mazda wanted more capacity, they only own 50% of the plant so the split of capacity is negotiable. And, to my knowledge, it's been the Mustang that has been pushing at the M6 and taking up the slack in the plant. Also, AAI is an integrated stamping plant, which means all of the stamping dies also would have to be moved. Doesn't make sense. If Ford were to pull the Mustang, where would they go and why?? I don't think the Mustang needs more capacity -- it's at it's peak and will be faced with new competition in the future which could affect sales volume. Despite AAI's issues with workforce, I can't think of any other Ford facility that would offer enough of a financial incentive to move. The only way this might make sense is if the Mustang were moving to a new platform with other derivatives, but I can't imagine this so soon after initiation of the D2c. Maybe your friend's input is spot on, but I just can't figure it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I don't quite get this. There is virtually no financial reason to pull production from one plant to another -- why would you reinvest to get exactly what you had to begin with; that's money wasted that could have been spent on product. Even if Mazda wanted more capacity, they only own 50% of the plant so the split of capacity is negotiable. And, to my knowledge, it's been the Mustang that has been pushing at the M6 and taking up the slack in the plant. Also, AAI is an integrated stamping plant, which means all of the stamping dies also would have to be moved. Doesn't make sense. If Ford were to pull the Mustang, where would they go and why?? I don't think the Mustang needs more capacity -- it's at it's peak and will be faced with new competition in the future which could affect sales volume. Despite AAI's issues with workforce, I can't think of any other Ford facility that would offer enough of a financial incentive to move. The only way this might make sense is if the Mustang were moving to a new platform with other derivatives, but I can't imagine this so soon after initiation of the D2c. Maybe your friend's input is spot on, but I just can't figure it... Well Maybe some DC2 derivtives are in the works. What could be built on a derived DC2 platform. Well for one a sedan. V8 RWD sedan. One is currently in production that is older than the Hills. In a facility capable of 500K that is being under utilized. STAP could be the awswer a DC2 Derived GM CV replacement or possibly Just add the Stang to the Output at STAP, yes it would require an investment to flex the plant But it would put all the RWD cars in one production location. Flexing it would not be a huge issue. Not like your building different drive layouts in one plant the line would just need to be modified to handle unit consturction and the V6 none of which would be that big an issue. IF Ford could get Mazda to buy their Half of AAI it would in part or in whole fund the move and upgrades to STAP. In the long run it would work out good. Ford is rasing the capacity at one of it's most under utilized plants there by cutting costs. And Giving Mazda more capacity for increased NA sales thus increasing revenue. It will both save Ford money and make them money. Just an idea to toss about. Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyb82 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 OT but maybe related. A few months ago a rumor was going around that Mazda wanted to but it's way out of Ford ownership. Anyone hear anthing like this? Could someone explain this to me? Doesn't Ford control the management of Mazda. How could Mazda want to buy its way out of Ford ownership when Ford is running Mazda? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildosvt Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Could someone explain this to me? Doesn't Ford control the management of Mazda. How could Mazda want to buy its way out of Ford ownership when Ford is running Mazda? Another way to look at it. IIRC the ground AAI sits on is still Ford land is'nt it? There are still some structures there from when it was MCC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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