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F-Series Numbers = Holy $%@&!!!

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Ever wonder just how big the gap is between Ford and everyone else when it comes to trucks? If this data is indeed correct (or even close), then "fuhgettabouditt!"

 

http://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/ford-is-clearing-10-billion-just-selling-50-000-truck-1669763881/+matthardigree

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Truecar numbers = unverifiable formulas applied to unreliable data packaged and sold as facts to a gullible public.

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sigh...yet another self proclaimed expert in the business.....I want to see THIS headline...." True car making X million dollars off the fear of a vehicle purchase"......................sub text....by doing 10 minutes of work giving a hypothetical number.....

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"Holy crap, pickup trucks are insanely expensive."

 

Yes indeed they are!

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ha ha ha! POTW with that pic!

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Truecar numbers = unverifiable formulas applied to unreliable data packaged and sold as facts to a gullible public.

 

But I believe it because it has the word "true" in the story.

Edited by LincolnV

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@LincolnV...and its on the internet so it MUST be true.....

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@LincolnV...and its on the internet so it MUST be true.....

And where did you hear that? The internet?

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I think the numbers are garbage, but total up all the GM K2XX models on the list (Silverado, Sierra, Tahoe, Suburban) and check that out.

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I think the numbers are garbage, but total up all the GM K2XX models on the list (Silverado, Sierra, Tahoe, Suburban) and check that out.

 

And then reflect on the difference in margins and profits between Ford and GM.

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Point taken. But go ahead and reflect on the difference in margins and profits between Ford and TM.....

 

Amazing how the U.S. manufacturers make their money on relatively few light truck platforms in North America while Toyota seems to make money on everything, no matter where they sell it.

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Point taken. But go ahead and reflect on the difference in margins and profits between Ford and TM.....

 

Amazing how the U.S. manufacturers make their money on relatively few light truck platforms in North America while Toyota seems to make money on everything, no matter where they sell it.

 

Toyota's margins in NA aren't that great. Can't speak to ROW--I suspect Toyota's stronger presence in Asia is the biggest difference between them and Ford right now.

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Toyota's margins in NA aren't that great. Can't speak to ROW--I suspect Toyota's stronger presence in Asia is the biggest difference between them and Ford right now.

what are Toyota's margins? what is your source?

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what are Toyota's margins? what is your source?

 

I have answered these questions elsewhere. I will not answer them again.

 

I leave it to you to contemplate your refusal to read my posts before responding to them.

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Toyota is a publicly traded company and this is material information. It is *publicly* available.

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Ford (in their above linked report) defines Operating Margin as this at the beginning of the report:

 

 

Automotive operating margin is defined as Automotive pre-tax results, excluding special items and Other Automotive, divided by Automotive revenue.

 

I know Richard said the other day it was not wise to define margin using pre-tax / excluding special items (apparently Fiat did in their report?). Or am I not remembering correctly? (honestly I don't know!) What is the "correct" way to report?

 

Thanks in advance.

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pre-tax / excluding special items (apparently Fiat did in their report?). Or am I not remembering correctly?

 

Actually, the problem was Fiat's focus on EBITDA which is earnings before income tax, depreciation and amortization, which are ordinary business expenses, not special items.

 

Also, Ford does not break down "Other Automotive" by geographic region--and to the best of my recollection, they never have.

 

You could quibble about their exclusion of special items from the operating margin, but they are at least consistent in doing so--they exclude gains as well as losses.

Edited by RichardJensen

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Thanks for explaining Richard. I think I understand (emphasis on think). So what would Ford's post tax / special items margin be? Or is that an unknown? Does GM / Toyota / etc calculate it the same way? I look at all these reports and honestly don't know how to compare one to another.

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You don't get regional post-tax breakdowns from any auto manufacturer, and the reason for that is possibly because matching tax payments to regional business units may not be straightforward.

 

Regarding special items, Ford has stopped providing special item notes in their regional breakdown, which is a bit irritating--but not out of line with industry practice.

 

However, they do provide a handy chart for special items in the quarterly reports (p. 13 here: https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North%20America/US/2014/10/24/3qfinancials.pdf) It appears that the bulk of 2014 special items relate to FoE, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

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You don't get regional post-tax breakdowns from any auto manufacturer, and the reason for that is possibly because matching tax payments to regional business units may not be straightforward.

 

Regarding special items, Ford has stopped providing special item notes in their regional breakdown, which is a bit irritating--but not out of line with industry practice.

 

However, they do provide a handy chart for special items in the quarterly reports (p. 13 here: https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North%20America/US/2014/10/24/3qfinancials.pdf) It appears that the bulk of 2014 special items relate to FoE, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

 

 

Thank you! I like to think of myself as a somewhat intelligent person, but after looking at these reports for five minutes, I surprise myself by the pool of drool on my keyboard.

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I don't understand this?

http://www.toyota-global.com/investors/financial_result/2015/pdf/q2/summary.pdf

 

Page 18

 

post-2855-0-55786100-1418698845_thumb.jpg

 

How does this jib with Ford's accounting?

 

Example.

 

why does Japan have so much revenue?

To put it bluntly

Toyota of Japan had 6,938,792 million yen in revenue on production of 2,142,878 in the FY2014 First half.

This Equates to $32,707 per vehicle?

 

with an operating margin of 11.9%

 

Toyota NA, on the other hand had 4,067,952 million yen in revenue on production of 890,130 in the FY2014 First half.

 

Which Equals $46,162 per vehicle produced.

 

with an operating margin of 4%

 

In dollars this equals Toyota of Japan books $32,707 per vehicle produced vs Toyota NA $46,000.

 

What is going on?

are those japanese vehicles that profitable?

 

post-2855-0-47231900-1418703323_thumb.jpg

 

 

according to Revenue Stuffs. Toyota is Extremely profitable exporting from Japan even though those products they export are lose money once those business unit receive those products.

 

How does this work?

Edited by Biker16

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How does this work?

 

Match revenue before transfers with units sold, to get your revenue per unit.

 

3,969,582,000,000 / 1,030,229 = 3,853,106 Y

4,377,124,000,000 / 1,395,105 = 3,137,487 Y

 

I don't know how they convert to dollars (I would assume there's a memo outlining the proper procedure for SEC filings somewhere), but at current rates you get:

 

$32,809 in Japan and $26,713 in NA

 

--

 

The intersegment elimination of operating expenses is tied closely to the intersegment sales figures (they are within .01% of each other for the first half of FY2015), which suggests that Toyota is booking operating expenses and revenue back into the manufacturing entity, something that Ford does not do.

 

VW is another company that walks revenue and expenses back to the country of manufacture in their filings. I suspect that both of these companies do so in order to bolster the appearance of their home country operations.

 

Therefore, you cannot jibe Ford's geographic breakdowns with Toyota's on a 100% matching basis, as some of the revenue and expenses are for vehicles that were sold in other business units.

 

However, the intersegment elimination for NA is so small, as a percentage of overall revenue, that it would have minimal impact when reconciling Toyota's reported ~4% margin to Ford's.

 

And this, again, is why I don't care to compare Toyota's results ROW with Ford's. They keep their books differently.

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A few years ago Toyota Australia were caught and fined for price transferring to avoid tax, this stuff goes on all the time

and you have to wonder if the Japanese government is on board with it or simply looking the other way.....

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