akirby Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) Think about it this way BMW nissan, jaguar and Hyundai only have one RWD/AWD platform that they stretch and shrink to cover their entire lineup. Stop agreeing with me. It's creepy. Edited October 7, 2014 by akirby 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 Ford "insiders" that had provided occasionally correct info said that it was "on". Sure as hell wasn't me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Here's a question: Ford said that both the Edge and the Fusion were built on CD3. Were they built on one platform? Edge was built on a modified CD3 platform and I don't recall any compromises to either the Fusion or the Edge based on that sharing, so why can't a new platform do the same thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Sure as hell wasn't me! Or my sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 With Explorer ATPs at or above $50K and Aviator at $60K or higher it makes the business case The business case is still this: AWD on a RWD vehicle is significantly more expensive. RWD is more expensive, period. RWD presents more packaging difficulties in obtaining the same passenger volume from the same overall length/width. RWD adds *no* value to a product that sells >12k units per month. Speaking in vague terms, if RWD adds an average of $1k to the bottom line of every Explorer sold, and Aviators sell at 1/6th the rate (which would make them by far and away the most popular 3-row luxury CUV), you would have to net an additional $6k in profit per Aviator JUST TO BREAK EVEN. And that's $6k in profit over a FWD derived variant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 It all makes sense IF Ford has decided to take Lincoln upmarket. It sounds like their plans for Navigator and the "Continental" could position them at a point where the brand hasn't been in a long, long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 If people are willing to pay $50K for a FWD based Explorer then I don't see a problem with an Aviator pulling $60K-$70K. You don't buy Luxury CUVs for cargo space. And people will put up with the same shortcomings from Lincoln that they put up with from BMW, right? After all, that strategy has worked for Cadillac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) Edge was built on a modified CD3 platform and I don't recall any compromises to either the Fusion or the Edge based on that sharing, so why can't a new platform do the same thing? No it was not. The Edge was built on the Mazda MPV platform that might have started off with bits and pieces of the 626, but which was unrecognizable by the time it was finished. The Edge didn't share a single piece of stamped metal or suspension componentry with the Fusion. It was hundreds of pounds heavier, wider, longer, and used totally different suspension concepts at all four corners. The nominal name for the Edge platform was CD3s. Ford boasted that the Edge had an integrated ladder frame. Have you *ever* seen such language used to describe the Fusion? http://cpanel.tkcarsites.com/cp/document.aspx?uDid=73&uSid=137&uPgId=2446 Edited October 7, 2014 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) Volume. MATH!! volume of explorers in 2016 170,000 Volume of aviators in 2016 40,000 Global volume of escapes and Kugas 400,000 ATP of kugas and escapes $26,000 ATP of Aviator and Explorer $45,000 total revenue in 2016 Escape/Kuga $10.4 billion Explorer/aviator $9.45 billion WOW Twice the volume but not Twice the revenue how does that work? Trivia.... does anyone here believe that it costs twice as much to build an Explorer as it costs to build an Escape? inevitably the more expensive vehicle will have higher margins, which makes it possible to do what you deem impossible. Edited October 7, 2014 by Biker16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 And people will put up with the same shortcomings from Lincoln that they put up with from BMW, right? After all, that strategy has worked for Cadillac. I have faith in the braintrust in Dearborn to do this right... They'll have their "volume" bases covered quite nicely with MKZ, MKC, and MKX: Something GM has never shored up for Cadillac before chasing niche segments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 Or my sources. Have you heard anything similar to this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 It sounds like their plans for Navigator and the "Continental" could position them at a point where the brand hasn't been in a long, long time. Yeah. Just like the CT6, CT8, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseodiaga4 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 should be nice to use this RWD platform only for Lincoln, they can use it to develop a Continental and a coupe + the Aviator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 Yeah. Just like the CT6, CT8, etc. Except for the fact that Cadillac is going that route without ANY of the groundwork that Ford has done with Lincoln, like dramatically improving the buying and owning experience, right-sizing the dealer network, and committing to first class entries in volume segments BEFORE making moves up or out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 MATH!! Volume of aviators in 2016 40,000 MATH!! 40,000 / 12 = 3,333.33 XC90: 1,453 GL: 2,154 Q7: 1,365 This new Aviator is going to outsell these vehicles? Really? And sales volume on this RWD Aviator is going to be so high that it will negate all the costs associated with migrating to RWD on the Explorer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Except for the fact that Cadillac is going that route without ANY of the groundwork that Ford has done with Lincoln, like dramatically improving the buying and owning experience, right-sizing the dealer network, and committing to first class entries in volume segments BEFORE making moves up or out. Is that all Ford needs to do to compete with the S-Class? Two years of dealership improvements at *most* but certainly not *all* Lincoln dealerships? And Ford can sustain $75k+ transaction prices for CUVs and sedans when cheap hack services are still running tons of old Town Cars and when one does not have to look far to find an MKX or MKZ that is barely differentiated from an Edge or a Fusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 The business case is still this: AWD on a RWD vehicle is significantly more expensive. these are expensive vehcles, the period. RWD ay allow for better ASP and bring more customers into the brand. RWD is more expensive, period. see above RWD presents more packaging difficulties in obtaining the same passenger volume from the same overall length/width. here is a fatal flaw in you comparison between the X5 and the edge. luxury buyer are less concerned with interior space, they can afford to have other vehicles and may have pickup truck as well as their luxury car. Understand these differences one size doesn't fit all. RWD adds *no* value to a product that sells >12k units per month. In your opinion. but a Crossover with V8 power is an attractive upgrade over the Explorer. Speaking in vague terms, if RWD adds an average of $1k to the bottom line of every Explorer sold, and Aviators sell at 1/6th the rate (which would make them by far and away the most popular 3-row luxury CUV), you would have to net an additional $6k in profit per Aviator JUST TO BREAK EVEN. And that's $6k in profit over a FWD derived variant. Who cares if RWD costs $1000 more on a $50-60 thousand dollar vehicle. I cannot fit a V8 on a FWD/AWD vehicle without paying penalty in weight and and performance. if you want a V8 you go RWD. and even with Eco-boost as an option it is less expensive to offer a V8 than a EB3.5. Your numbers are off the development costs of the platform would be spread evenly among all products on the platform, the variations of each top hat would be assigned to each individual product. adding Lincoln volume to the platform would lower costs for all vehicles on the platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) MATH!! 40,000 / 12 = 3,333.33 XC90: 1,453 GL: 2,154 Q7: 1,365 This new Aviator is going to outsell these vehicles? Really? And sales volume on this RWD Aviator is going to be so high that it will negate all the costs associated with migrating to RWD on the Explorer? I'm sorry darling we are going GLOBAL!!!!!!!! Edited October 7, 2014 by Biker16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) I cannot fit a V8 on a FWD/AWD vehicle CAFE going to 56MPG unadjusted and you think Ford's going to be putting V8s in the Explorer? Edited October 7, 2014 by RichardJensen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) I'm sorry darling we are going GLOBAL!!!!!!!! Irrelevant. Because global basically means "China". And that means exports to China, which means precious little volume. Edited October 7, 2014 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 The most popular 7 passenger CUV is the Acura MDX. Anyone want to guess how its engine is setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Who cares if RWD costs $1000 more on a $50-60 thousand dollar vehicle. Ford's managers care. Or they ought to. Add cost when you can add value---or when you are required by law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I'm sorry darling we are going GLOBAL!!!!!!!! I'm not emotional About it, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Have you heard anything similar to this? Nope. But I don't get that much inside info. Just a few tidbits here and there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) I'm sorry darling we are going GLOBAL!!!!!!!! You really think that a 7 Row CUV that would retail at 50K in the US and even more overseas is going to sell 40K units world wide? I'd like to have what your smoking..... Edited October 7, 2014 by silvrsvt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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