grbeck Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I thought most here would know that the models are umbrella'd together and the General refuses to breakout sales between the two. This is what makes me suspicious regarding the success of the new Impala. If it were selling really well, I'd think that GM would want to highlight that fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 What the hell... here's his quote: Either my source is completely wrong or he/she was playing word games. Either way they got some 'splaining to do if a new U.S. Taurus appears next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 It will be interesting to see how well a new Taurus sells. GM doesn't break out the sales figures for the new-generation Impala from total Impala sales, which tells me that it's not selling that well, or as well as GM expected. Well looking at the sales numbers since the 2010, they've more or less hovered around 80-90K units a year, not including the PI variants. For car that for all intents is nothing more then a long wheel base Fusion that will have a V6 and a $4-5K higher MSRP over the Fusion..it would be a no brainer to keep it around. It would be like developing a Mercury or Lincoln model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Either my source is completely wrong or he/she was playing word games. Either way they got some 'splaining to do if a new U.S. Taurus appears next year. Well I have the a feeling the current Taurus will be around as the PI till the next gen Explorer comes out....so technically they could be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 well, they DID own Land Rover for a while...and the current FWD based Explorers AWD system is eerily similar albeit simpler than one utilized in the Evoque. Yeah, well, that system was developed by Ford/BW. The genius of the BW system was the use of electromagnetically controlled clutch plates that distributed torque in 10% increments, as dictated by software algorithms. Such was the first "push button four wheel drive" in the '92(?) Explorer, so is the system in the current Explorer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Is it even worth mentioning at this point that one of the stillborn Explorer replacements (pre-meltdown) was part of a program that included a Lincoln and Land Rover variant? Naw, I won't even bring it up. Do it...ya know ya want too.....lol....could some cob webs be being dusted off?.....I'll take a cab with that Filet please.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 You can do full time AWD just as easily with a transverse layout as you can with a longitudinal layout (see: Jaguar X-Type). The reason why Fords do not offer full time AWD is because it hasn't justified the cost of installing a center diff. Ford and Borg-Warner built the first fully electronic AWD system 20+ years ago, and that system, like its successor (the AWD system Ford currently uses), eschewed a center diff as being unnecessary given the speed with which torque transfer could be accomplished. That Ford has not subsequently built AWD vehicles that compete with Jeep/Subaru is not a function of the AWD system itself, rather, it's Ford's refusal to invest significant development dollars in additional pieces (locking front & rear diffs, additional gears on the transfer case outputs) because they would not pay their way and because Ford's reputation is not at stake. The second takeaway from this is that any full time AWD vehicle would not use Ford's AWD system. It would have to be an off-the-shelf product from an outside supplier. You can easily take a longitudinal 4WD drivetrain and make it full time AWD with a viscous center differential and control software. To take Ford's existing transverse FWD drivetrain and turn it into a full time AWD system you'd have to completely redesign it including new front PTU/center diff and rear diff to take sustained torque/heat. Not saying it can't be done but I don't think it's the most effective solution. I also doubt there are very many off the shelf parts for such a setup compared with a RWD center diff/transfer case setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Do it...ya know ya want too.....lol....could some cob webs be being dusted off?.....I'll take a cab with that Filet please.... Again, from our favorite insider: The usual reasons... economics. Lincoln is of the (correct) belief that CUVs/crossovers are a high growth, high margin segment. Unlike sedans, which is a highly competitive, cost-intensive, and low to no profit, this is a segment where investment in a really excellent platform would pay its way. The next Navigator is aiming more for luxury and plushness, so there's room in the product lineup for a more dynamic, sporting entry. As for the Explorer... economies of scale. Ford is already making a name for the Explorer as a more premium entry in its segment, so it could support a RWD platform from a cost perspective. But some people acted like I was nuts when I insinuated that the next-gen Explorer would "refocus" up to where the bulk of its buyers already are. Edit, with a little scrap of new info: Current D4 Explorer is built like a direct competitor to the Pilot, Highlander, Lambda, et al. However, the average Explorer buyer is slightly older, wealthier, and more educated than those of other segment entries, and they spend a great deal more on average. The next Explorer isn't being designed to cater to Pilot or Highlander customers. It's being tailored to the type of person that is already buying the Explorer. Edited October 15, 2014 by PREMiERdrum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 all this backwards and forwards has me starting to REALLY believe there will be a Lincoln released that will compete, and undercut the LR Discovery.....awesome, and if so, de-content, tone down the luxury a tad, less gizmos, and voila, Explorer knockoff... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 all this backwards and forwards has me starting to REALLY believe there will be a Lincoln released that will compete, and undercut the LR Discovery.....awesome, and if so, de-content, tone down the luxury a tad, less gizmos, and voila, Explorer knockoff... The noise coming from typically reliable sources is starting to look that way. Connecting some dots, I do expect a bridge product between Edge and Explorer... a less expensive, FWD crossover to compete more directly with Pilot, Highlander, etc. People have shown they are willing to drop $50large on this current Explorer, and Ford is ready and willing to fully exploit that with the next iteration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Lincoln is of the (correct) belief that CUVs/crossovers are a high growth, high margin segment. Unlike sedans, which is a highly competitive, cost-intensive, and low to no profit, this is a segment where investment in a really excellent platform would pay its way. The next Navigator is aiming more for luxury and plushness, so there's room in the product lineup for a more dynamic, sporting entry. As for the Explorer... economies of scale. Ford is already making a name for the Explorer as a more premium entry in its segment, so it could support a RWD platform from a cost perspective. Is there an echo in here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 The noise coming from typically reliable sources is starting to look that way. Connecting some dots, I do expect a bridge product between Edge and Explorer... a less expensive, FWD crossover to compete more directly with Pilot, Highlander, etc. People have shown they are willing to drop $50large on this current Explorer, and Ford is ready and willing to fully exploit that with the next iteration. Isn't that called Flex? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Isn't that called Flex? I for one will miss its "quirkyness" and in all sincerity, I STILL think its the best driving, and has the best space utilization of Fords "trio".... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 Isn't that called Flex? Not really, no. Flex and Explorer are the same car in different suits, and Flex is not that much less expensive at the bottom end (although the base Flex is marginally better equipped than the base Explorer. Both are on a platform that is on the way out, and the Flex as it currently exists is a dead car walking. I expect the bridge product to be smaller than the next Explorer with a smallish 3rd row, akin to the Sorento or Santa Fe 3 row. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 ,and the Flex as it currently exists is a dead car walking rolling. FIFY 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 To take Ford's existing transverse FWD drivetrain and turn it into a full time AWD system Ford's RWD AWD system also lacks a center diff. And there is no need to use a viscous center diff. You would probably use a cheaper/more mechanically efficient mechanical diff since the torque splits would be accomplished by electronically controlled clutch packs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Again, from our favorite insider: But some people acted like I was nuts when I insinuated that the next-gen Explorer would "refocus" up to where the bulk of its buyers already are. Edit, with a little scrap of new info: Current D4 Explorer is built like a direct competitor to the Pilot, Highlander, Lambda, et al. However, the average Explorer buyer is slightly older, wealthier, and more educated than those of other segment entries, and they spend a great deal more on average. The next Explorer isn't being designed to cater to Pilot or Highlander customers. It's being tailored to the type of person that is already buying the Explorer. I'm not seeing anything that suggests this is fait accompli. I'm seeing comments suggesting that it's under review. And, as we all know, everything's always under review. And, once again, pushing the Explorer up market doesn't require RWD, which means that RWD is effectively a drag on the Explorer bottom-line, coupled with lower Explorer volumes----and all, apparently, on the off-chance that lots of Americans want to buy Lincolns? Not a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I'm not seeing anything that suggests this is fait accompli. I'm seeing comments suggesting that it's under review. And, as we all know, everything's always under review. And, once again, pushing the Explorer up market doesn't require RWD, which means that RWD is effectively a drag on the Explorer bottom-line, coupled with lower Explorer volumes----and all, apparently, on the off-chance that lots of Americans want to buy Lincolns? Not a good idea. I can see it, and it doesnt surprize me, perhaps its gets renamed as it moves up market and slots in where the Expedition is now, and the Expedition moves upmarket as well, and then a newer model slots in where the Explorer vacated, AND gets either re-named or remains Explorer on a FWD based platform shared with the Edge?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Even if it does move up market, it is not necessary for it to use RWD to move up market, given that the high-end purchasers of the current Explorer have no issue with its FWD configuration. And if you do the Expy & Explorer as smaller and larger variants of some RWD CUV platform, you're still adding cost to the Explorer that can't be justified except as a way to make another product appear more profitable---- Edited October 15, 2014 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Even if it does move up market, it is not necessary for it to use RWD to move up market, given that the high-end purchasers of the current Explorer have no issue with its FWD configuration. And if you do the Expy & Explorer as smaller and larger variants of some RWD CUV platform, you're still adding cost to the Explorer that can't be justified except as a way to make another product appear more profitable---- conversation aside, Im getting bloody sticker shock as of late...how the hell people can afford some of these vehicles is beyond me....I dont doubt 10 year financing soon.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Even if it does move up market, it is not necessary for it to use RWD to move up market, given that the high-end purchasers of the current Explorer have no issue with its FWD configuration. And if you do the Expy & Explorer as smaller and larger variants of some RWD CUV platform, you're still adding cost to the Explorer that can't be justified except as a way to make another product appear more profitable---- I still say if you have a 12 oz can of coke you can sell for $2.00 that costs $1, and two 6oz cans of coke you can sell for 1.50 at the same $1.00 makes good business sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Not really, no. Flex and Explorer are the same car in different suits, and Flex is not that much less expensive at the bottom end (although the base Flex is marginally better equipped than the base Explorer. Both are on a platform that is on the way out, and the Flex as it currently exists is a dead car walking. I expect the bridge product to be smaller than the next Explorer with a smallish 3rd row, akin to the Sorento or Santa Fe 3 row. I didn't mean Flex as it currently exists necessarily - just that Ford already has another 3 row CUV to fill in between Edge and Explorer if they repurpose Explorer. It could move to a CD4 based platform and be just fine - essentially a slightly enlarged Edge with 3 rows. Or you could just lengthen Edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 Or you could just lengthen Edge. I think I mentioned that on page 2 or 3 LOL So yes, a "Flex replacement" in concept, but nolonger a redressed Explorer on the same platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Even if it does move up market, it is not necessary for it to use RWD to move up market, given that the high-end purchasers of the current Explorer have no issue with its FWD configuration. How are you going to move the Explorer any further up market or make it any more desirable on a FWD/AWD based platform? You can't. It's maxed out now with the 3.5L EB. If you have a platform available paid for by Lincoln it would be stupid not to use it for Explorer - IF YOU'VE ALREADY DECIDED to take Explorer upmarket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) How are you going to move the Explorer any further up market or make it any more desirable on a FWD/AWD based platform? You can't. It's maxed out now with the 3.5L EB. If you have a platform available paid for by Lincoln it would be stupid not to use it for Explorer - IF YOU'VE ALREADY DECIDED to take Explorer upmarket. here we go, 2.7 eco, RWD platform, aLUMINUM, more luxury amenities, cap at $65k, renamed to Expedition, Expedition, move upmarket, same parameters, renamed Excursion, Edge extended, remains FWD based, 3 row, renamed Explorer.... Edited October 15, 2014 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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