Ford cancels MKS V-8

[Watchdevil]

Hey don't stop there. People are paying $150,000 for 6 cyl Porsches. Suckers! And check out Lotus chargin 60k for a 4 cyl Toyota powered Exige. Its robbery, I'm telling you.

 

The thing is, some People don't really care how many cylinders the car has as long as its fast and nimble. I'll take a 6 cyliner car that can handle the twisties andy day over a V8 powered one that can't.

 

This doesn't surprise me... Ford always falls short of what is expected in the market when they content and position their cars... I think the MKS is going to be a looser anyway and another mistake. They always say when you keep doing the same things over and over and not getting a different result then it's time to change something....

[Traveler]

I can see it now. This new MKS hitting the newstands in a magazine comparo against the 5.7L 300C and the Northstar 4.6 Buick Lucerne, instead of being compared against the competition that Lincoln wishes to aim the sedan toward. Lincoln really needs to blow the media away with this car or else they'll continue to stumble. If Lincoln can not prove to the public nor the media that there is any substantial benefit for going with a more exotic six-cylinder, it will sputter. Eight cylinder engines are traditionally more popular and accepted more easily. Its a gamble for Lincoln.

 

One angle that would improve the car's desirability among the traditional luxury buyers is to offer a clutchless manual tranny as an option with AWD and the twin-turbo V6 for a true luxury sports sedan feel. The LS never received a true manual behind the 3.9L V8. I often wondered if that could have effected popularity of the LS out of the gate.

[waymondospiff]

Most of my ideas (wrong, wrong, wrong) have already been said so I'll focus on this:

 

What the hell is a MKS?

 

Is the MKS an AWD sports sedan? If so, twin-turbo V6 & AWD sound great. S80 chassis and sedate styling are not so good.

 

Is the MKS a traditional luxury sedan? If so, S80 chassis and conservative duds are great. A twin-turbo V6 sounds like a mid-90s Japanese sports car.

 

A conservatively tuned & styled luxury sedan with AWD and a twin-turbo V6? Why? What market is the MKS aimed at - who are the target buyers? What makes up the competitive set - which cars does the MKS compete with?

 

Hopefully a different non-Yamaha V8 is developed & sourced. Or perhaps the MKS will receive an injection of adreneline before launch.

 

As it stands, I see a lost soul wandering around lost in a sea of better cars.

 

Scott

[Radius]

Most of my ideas (wrong, wrong, wrong) have already been said so I'll focus on this:

 

What the hell is a MKS?

 

Is the MKS an AWD sports sedan? If so, twin-turbo V6 & AWD sound great. S80 chassis and sedate styling are not so good.

 

Is the MKS a traditional luxury sedan? If so, S80 chassis and conservative duds are great. A twin-turbo V6 sounds like a mid-90s Japanese sports car.

 

A conservatively tuned & styled luxury sedan with AWD and a twin-turbo V6? Why? What market is the MKS aimed at - who are the target buyers? What makes up the competitive set - which cars does the MKS compete with?

 

Hopefully a different non-Yamaha V8 is developed & sourced. Or perhaps the MKS will receive an injection of adreneline before launch.

 

As it stands, I see a lost soul wandering around lost in a sea of better cars.

 

Scott

 

 

 

Let's hope it is a 350-400HP twin turbo 3.5 liter V6 AWD sedan. They were asking questions about it on the Lincoln web site a few months back. There will be a sea of better or differnt cars out there aginst it. But with that being said, they have to have something. They are so light on product that they need something soon.

 

There are a lot of people who are looking to buy american if they can, maybe it won't be so bad and it will buy them some time to develop a new V8.

 

Regards,

[ZanatWork]

I understand an announcement about either a new V8 design or a variant of the 3.5 engine is shortly forthcoming....

[igor]

If they've got something else to bring that will capture the imagination of potential buyers - some really hot powertrain like the twin turbo that has been mentioned around here (even if it's only available as an option), that will make the Lincoln stand out from a performance and technology standpoint, then I can approach this news with an open mind.

 

If this amounts to nothing more than half-assing yet another launch because they just ran out of corporate steam, and hoping nobody will notice or care ....... then, they may as well just call in Dr. Kevorkian and put the brand out of its misery. I love Lincoln. Always have. But please, don't let it sit there in its "Depends", trembling hands, quavering voice, trying to remember its own name. Lincoln doesn't deserve such an undignified end.

 

Most of my ideas (wrong, wrong, wrong) have already been said so I'll focus on this:

 

What the hell is a MKS?

 

Is the MKS an AWD sports sedan? If so, twin-turbo V6 & AWD sound great. S80 chassis and sedate styling are not so good.

 

Is the MKS a traditional luxury sedan? If so, S80 chassis and conservative duds are great. A twin-turbo V6 sounds like a mid-90s Japanese sports car.

 

A conservatively tuned & styled luxury sedan with AWD and a twin-turbo V6? Why? What market is the MKS aimed at - who are the target buyers? What makes up the competitive set - which cars does the MKS compete with?

 

Hopefully a different non-Yamaha V8 is developed & sourced. Or perhaps the MKS will receive an injection of adreneline before launch.

 

As it stands, I see a lost soul wandering around lost in a sea of better cars.

 

Scott

 

Both great posts ..

 

expecially bottom one ... I think we will need to see which direction was chosen for the MKS .. your two examples clearly point to two extremes, and between them the benefits of V8 or TTV6 ...

 

Igor

[KinneticBrian]

Well this is an interesting bit of news and a great discussion stream surrounding it. There is one thing that I really don't grasp though. Why is Ford afraid of putting some real performance in the Lincoln lineup? With few exceptions over the past 30 years, performance has been either "adequate" or "on par" with the competition or, sadly lacking.

 

Roll back the tape to the 60's and the classic '61-'69 Continentals. When Ford gave the go-ahead to these sedans, they made damn sure that they had the firepower under the hood to match the "Rat Pack" cool exterior. Indeed they humiliated Cadillac, whose cars of that era were sadly lacking in everything except perhaps excess chrome. An excerpt from a book I own regarding Presidential Transportation said that the twin '67 Continental Convertibles that were used as chase/follow-up cars for the limo actually startled agents who drove them with their accelleration as opposed to the mid-50's Cadillacs they replaced.

 

By the '70's, performance of both the Continental and the Mark were about even with their competitors at Cadillac. Lincoln gained a slight edge in the 80's when the Town Car picked up MPFI and blew the doors off of the competing Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. The Mark VII LSC was never seriously challenged by the Eldorado during that time. The 1988 Continental was the first major fumble for Ford in this era and it seems like they've never really recovered. That sedan should have been RWD and powered by a very strong V-8. In the '90's, the Mark VIII and Continental were even with their Cadillac competitors but never stood out. The Town Car was left to try to battle the Northstar DeVilles and the LT-1 Fleetwood Brougham.

 

Ford has built several high performance engines over the years, yet they manage to not find their way into some of the products that could desperately use them. Ford has built some nice looking Lincolns since the '60s, and yes, this MKS looks to be yet another. But they're going to have to do better than a 3.5 V-6 if they want this car to compete with much more than a Nissan Maxima.

 

I saw a post who said that they can see a comparo between the 300C and a V-8 Lucerne... I can see the "drive-by" auto media, who already hates Ford, doing just this and declaring the Lincoln a distant third, based solely on performance. Never mind that the 300 has a "Wal-Mart" designer series interior and that the Lucerne is everything the press has declared their hatred for over the last 20 years.

 

If the V-8 doesn't come into being in this car, then Ford had better put the twin-turbo AWD model on the market first. Come out with a bang and introduce the lower priced MKS later on. Ford cannot afford to fumble the ball on this one and save face with the Lincoln brand. A hit with this car, and perhaps re-skinning the Town Car along the lines of the Continental concept car of a few years ago (giving it real power) would be definitive steps in the right direction.

[igor]

Kinneticbrian ... If you missed . the TTV6 is more performance oriented than the lowly 4.4l V8 ... Ford decided to go with a 360hp Turbo engine over a 315 NA setup ... the one they chose sounds quite performance worthy to me.

 

Igor

[Hemiman]

Well this prooves me wrong.

 

I was calling the MKS a "Lincoln Lucerne" but I was wrong. The Lucerne offers a V-8! Lincoln is now being dumbed down to Pontiac standards. "Lincoln Grand Prix"?

[RichardJensen]

No. You can get a V8 in the Grand Prix too.

[ZanatWork]

Now, if they'd drop the twin-tubro'd 3.5 into an SVT Fusion with awd and a 6-speed...I'd sell a kidney to get it!

 

Well...not one of MINE, of course.

[KinneticBrian]

Kinneticbrian ... If you missed . the TTV6 is more performance oriented than the lowly 4.4l V8 ... Ford decided to go with a 360hp Turbo engine over a 315 NA setup ... the one they chose sounds quite performance worthy to me.

 

Igor

 

Right you are Igor - I was making the point that from an "image" perspective, the lack of a V-8 and a non TT V-6 would greatly diminish this car's footprint in what is arguably the most competitive arena of the modern sedan market.

 

For my part, I'd buy the MKS in a heartbeat with the TT over a lower rated V-8.

 

And as to Hemiman's calling this a "Lincoln Lucerne" or worse "Lincoln Grand Prix" - I respectfully disagree. The Grand Prix is a boring, waste of a car with no real identity anymore. The Lucerne, in contrast, is a very handsome, refined American car that represents Buick much better than the homely LeSabre and oudated Park Avenue it replaces. Further, in my humble opinion, this car humiliates the competition from the Chrysler 300 in exactly the same way the '60's Lincolns humilated Cadillac and Chrysler's Imperial.

 

If the MKS comes to market with a competitive engine/transmission, then Lincoln will see conquest sales from the badly styled and overpriced Cadillac STS, and perhaps even Lexus and BMW. There are a number of people my age who are looking for something that isn't a cliche'd yuppie mobile (Lexus and Bimmer) and who consider Mercedes-Benz to be an older person's brand.

 

Ford seems to get it that if they want Lincoln to survive as a brand, a new, younger demographic is going to have to be pursued. Now, let's see if they know what it takes to pursue, capture and keep them.

[bb62]

A few points on this not-too-well-thought-out-program:

 

1. The Yamaha engine is indeed dead. It died at the end of June.

2. The reason it died was cost (The Yamaha team is pissed - another relatiohship down the tubes).

3. The whole reason for using the "Ford 500" platform was to maximize platform volume (and thus minimize cost). But because Lincoln needed the rear wheels to turn and because the platform is inherently FWD, the platform had to be engineered to be AWD (adding a ton of extra weight that just is not needed).

4. The transmission to be used is an Aisin box, but is limited in torque capability. The turbo V6 will be torque limited in the lower gears.

 

This program has been drifting for years with little vision.

[retro-man]

If the V-8 doesn't come into being in this car, then Ford had better put the twin-turbo AWD model on the market first. Come out with a bang and introduce the lower priced MKS later on.

Exactly! Let's see if they've got at least that much figured out.

...... and perhaps re-skinning the Town Car along the lines of the Continental concept car of a few years ago (giving it real power)......

Agree with that too, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Michael Reynolds]

V-6 + AWD Luxury Car = Acura RL = Failure

 

How is Lincoln going to change the outcome of their equation?

 

By pricing it appropriately.

[SysEng]

There is a new V-8 coming out soon (will have news this week) - it might find itself in the MXS.

 

It will be a dead story if it isn't the 6.3L "Hurricane". You'd think someone would control the mis-spending on programs at Ford sooner or later. Did they not get the message with the 3.9V8 investment and the LoSer Lincoln? Now that the MKS V8 has been cancelled, show some IQ higher than a centipedes skateboard and cancel the MKS.

 

Prcing a Caddie in Camry territory only lowers the Caddilac to Camrys level... why should it be any different with Lincoln???

[630land]

Unless they find a way to make gas out of water, we will not see any big cars with 'Hurricane' motors.

 

When gas went over 3$, all bets were off. Now, "bigger is better" is over

[lincmerc51]

As a longtime Ford customer (Right now I have a 95 Econoline, 03 Sport Trac, 04 Navigator and 01 Lincoln LS with the Getrag manual tranny) I have a problem lately. There is nothing on a Ford or LM lot that I would consider buying to replace my LS or Navigator. The 07 Nav is about the ugliest face I've seen on a car since the Checker. The MK X has a beautiful rear end, but the front again is butt-ugly. Looks like a 70s AMC Spirit. No, actually the Spirit was better looking. ANd the flat, slab sides complete the ugh look. The Zephyr? Gimme a Mazda 6 with a 5speed. The Z is for my Grandma.

 

But the MK S has some potential. It looks nice from every angle, although the rear treatment is not very well done and looks a whole lot like an Aurora. If they put suede on the dashboard, I think they'll severely limit potential buyers. Without a V8, more buyers will be eliminated. A twin turbo 3.5L V6 in a Lincoln? I'll believe that when I see it. I do think though in a perverse way it will bring more buyers in than the lack of a V8 would eliminate. There would be a lot of press about it and performance-minded buyers with $$$s will definitely be checking it out. I might even be one of them (although being unemployed could get in the way :>) But I'll tell ya one thing that will be a showstopper for me and that's the riduculous shifter Ford is putting in most of their cars now, including the Zephyr or MK Z or Emm Kay Zee or or Mark Z or whatever I'm supposed to call it and that's the one that goes like this: "P R N D L" D-L the ONLY forward gears available to the driver??? Perfect for the blue hair set but if Lincoln wants a younger clientele, put a select shift in at least as an option as it was on the LS. (If only my 5 speed LS could have had a twin turbo 3.0L Duratec...) Anybody know of a blower that fits the 3.0L Duratec BTW? :>)

[one2gamble]

Unless they find a way to make gas out of water, we will not see any big cars with 'Hurricane' motors.

 

When gas went over 3$, all bets were off. Now, "bigger is better" is over

 

 

The luxury car market is immune to gas pressures for the most part. Its all about offering what people want concerning options, performance and price.

 

If someone wants a big powerful V8 in their luxury sedan they should be able to get said V8. It really is that simple.

[RichardJensen]

A few points on this not-too-well-thought-out-program:

 

1. The Yamaha engine is indeed dead. It died at the end of June.

2. The reason it died was cost (The Yamaha team is pissed - another relatiohship down the tubes).

3. The whole reason for using the "Ford 500" platform was to maximize platform volume (and thus minimize cost). But because Lincoln needed the rear wheels to turn and because the platform is inherently FWD, the platform had to be engineered to be AWD (adding a ton of extra weight that just is not needed).

4. The transmission to be used is an Aisin box, but is limited in torque capability. The turbo V6 will be torque limited in the lower gears.

 

This program has been drifting for years with little vision.

1, 2) The Yamaha engine is now available both in the S80 and XC90. I doubt that this relationship is "down the tubes"

 

3) The P2 platform was already AWD capable, as it was AWD equipped in some XC90s. Hence, the derived D3 was AWD capable with no major effort

4) The Aisin box is being replaced by the Ford/GM 6 speed.

[bb62]

1, 2) The Yamaha engine is now available both in the S80 and XC90. I doubt that this relationship is "down the tubes"

 

3) The P2 platform was already AWD capable, as it was AWD equipped in some XC90s. Hence, the derived D3 was AWD capable with no major effort

4) The Aisin box is being replaced by the Ford/GM 6 speed.

 

 

With respect to your points 1 & 2, The Volvo team had been hoping that the higher "Ford" volume would lead to dramatically lower costs. since that isn't happening now, Volvo has an exit plan for the engine. Secondly, when Ford got serious with Yamaha on this V8, several Yamaha people got compensated well for it, but with the business evaporated, it puts those people in a difficult position given both the lack of profits (and in fact difficulty getting Ford to pay the engineering bill that was agreed to). The relationship is toast.

 

For point 3, The XC90 platform is VERY different than what is planned for Lincoln. The S80 is closer, but still the differences are marked. This IS a major effort.

 

For point 4, consider that the Ford/GM box is bigger (which is OK with the V6 but not the V8 - so this is no issue now) and has a lower torque capacity (which is an issue especially with the turbo).

[RichardJensen]

"The XC90 platform is VERY different than what is planned for Lincoln. The S80 is closer"

 

XC90 and S80 are both built on P2, and both are AWD capable. The D3 rear suspension is identical to the P2 suspension, except it is steel, not aluminum. There was no major effort involved in adapting an AWD capable chassis (P2) to be an AWD capable chassis (D3).

 

As for the whole Yamaha thing, we'll see.

[wescoent]

"The XC90 platform is VERY different than what is planned for Lincoln. The S80 is closer"

 

XC90 and S80 are both built on P2, and both are AWD capable. The D3 rear suspension is identical to the P2 suspension, except it is steel, not aluminum. There was no major effort involved in adapting an AWD capable chassis (P2) to be an AWD capable chassis (D3).

 

As for the whole Yamaha thing, we'll see.

 

Correction. The XC90 is probably the closest relative to the D3 Ford design. The S80 is a whole new platform based on the EUCD, as well all future Volvos.

[Edstock]

"Sadly, the MKS is headed for a market where there are competitors with both V8s and twisties-capability."

 

Well, with the cost of gas, lack of a V-8 may not be a big deal.

 

As well, consider the return of the turbo straight six to the BMW 3 and 5 line-up, and Audi's turbo offerings. Turbo 6's had been a European factory item prior to the BMW V-8.

 

Suppose you widened a 500 so you could fit a 4.6/5.4 DOHC. How much wider would the car be? A twin-turbo 5.4 with heavy-duty Haldex components and a transmission that can take it would make a fine AWD 500hp flagship.

[one2gamble]

Well, with the cost of gas

 

 

FYI I have yet to drive a turbo 6 that gets significantly better mpg than a similar powered V8