Mullaly Wanted to Kill Lincoln !

[AlRozzi]

Are you talking about Wall Street?

I'm sorry, I'm not sure if you are asking a question regarding my comment or being cynical about Wall Street or just a humorous rhetorical response? Either way, good way to pose a question!

 

Regarding what I said, I was actually just trying to be funny. akirby knows where I'm coming from because I joke with him like that from time to time.

[AlRozzi]

 

That makes no sense...that would actually cost more because your luxury platform (using CD platform as an example) would be lucky to break 150K units a year in sales, vs nearly 400-500K sales if it was shared with Ford.

Why can't 150k be profitable? Why can't 50k make $? I recall the days when Porsche sold 50,000 and was the most profitable car company in the world.

 

Besides, Lincoln doesn't even break 100k and it is still around.

 

I think there is hope!

[silvrsvt]

Why can't 150k be profitable? Why can't 50k make $? I recall the days when Porsche sold 50,000 and was the most profitable car company in the world.

 

Besides, Lincoln doesn't even break 100k and it is still around.

 

because Lincoln shares its platforms with Ford....

 

As for Porsche, why did VW take them over then? As for them being the most profitable car company in the world..well I'll say this much: German Accounting isn't the same as its Engineering...lets also not forget the best sell Porsche model (IIRC) is shared with VW and Audi, and its a SUV...

[RichardJensen]

It seems to me that would shut the mouths of true luxury believers

 

Won't happen.

 

Had this discussion on a Celtics site. Some guy who doesn't like Ainge was griping about the team trading Kendrick Perkins for Jeff Green. Perk was in a contract year and the C's had four possible outcomes:

 

1) Trade him for a better player/draft pick that turned into a better player

2) Trade him for a worse player/draft pick that turned into a worse player

3) Keep him at ~$10M/year, even as his skills and abilities deteriorate

4) Let him walk for nothing.

 

Ainge managed to get the best possible outcome (Jeff Green is a better player than Perkins), and people who don't like Ainge continue to rag on him. As you can well imagine, any other outcome would've given them something to rag on AInge about.

 

The bottom line is that, despite their willingness to engage in conversations, most people with firmly held opinions are unwilling to change them. Dismantling the reasons on which their opinions are purportedly based is ineffective because their opinions are not propped up on logical arguments that have been deductively assembled. Rather, the arguments are honed to justify a pre-existing opinion, and are typically convincing only to people who are already in agreement with certain basic premises.

 

Thus someone who refuses to acknowledge Lincoln as a "true" luxury marque will always find a "reason" why Lincoln is not a "true" luxury marque. This is, of course, the 'no true Scotsman' logical fallacy--although it is also occasionally referred to as 'moving the goalposts.'

 

And, basically, it's why a company's best interests are often served by ignoring these people when they don't like your products: Often, you can't placate them.

Edited July 3, 2014 by RichardJensen

[Harley Lover]

As for Porsche, why did VW take them over then?

 

Not because of Porsche's lack of profit (as you imply), but because of Porsche's failed attempt to take over VW.

[Edstock]

the best sell Porsche model (IIRC) is shared with VW and Audi, and its a SUV...

 

It's sort of derived from the Touareg and the Q7, but the body shell is all alloy, and except for the A-pillar, probably not much is shared with the other two in the way of metal. How much the Cayenne V6/V8 engines differ from the Audi V6/V8's I have no idea.

 

FWIW, Porsche contends that the Macan is also very different from the Tiguan and the Q5.

[papilgee4evaeva]

 

It's sort of derived from the Touareg and the Q7, but the body shell is all alloy, and except for the A-pillar, probably not much is shared with the other two in the way of metal. How much the Cayenne V6/V8 engines differ from the Audi V6/V8's I have no idea.

 

FWIW, Porsche contends that the Macan is also very different from the Tiguan and the Q5.

 

Q5, I don't believe. Tiguan is Golf-based, so that much is easy to believe.

[2b2]

...I see an advantage by perhaps building one special platform for a dedicated luxury car and perhaps spinning 2 to 3 models off of that and then filling out the brand as a dual with lower vehicles that share platforms and the like with the mainstream brand. Could be Continental/Lincoln, for example...

 

...By keeping the model line narrow and on one platform it reduces the cost of developing a portfolio of "luxury" vehicles...

 

...I'm not criticizing what Alan chose to do, I'm only expressing what I would have done.

Al!!

 

imho it's a straight-forward proposition of only TownCar+Navigator as Lincolns

and everything else SO FAR as a Premium Brand

followed by a much higher "True Lux" rebirth (which imho they're just about ready for...& sounds a bit like your idea)

otoh

I played with a more involved 90's to 2015 alternate scenario elsewhere

( slide1, slide2... of six - if you're interested )

[NickF1011]

 

Not because of Porsche's lack of profit (as you imply), but because of Porsche's failed attempt to take over VW.

 

Porsche also has a lot of non-automotive revenue. Lincoln does not.

[Edstock]

 

Q5, I don't believe. Tiguan is Golf-based, so that much is easy to believe.

 

Go check with Porsche. The Macan is derived from the Q5, which started off as a Tiguan, AFAIK. Porsche has been very sensitive about "badge engineering", so they have stressed how many changes they have made from the Q5.

[papilgee4evaeva]

 

Go check with Porsche. The Macan is derived from the Q5, which started off as a Tiguan, AFAIK. Porsche has been very sensitive about "badge engineering", so they have stressed how many changes they have made from the Q5.

Q3 started off as a Tiguan (based on Golf). Q5 is its own animal (based on A4/A5). Can't put an engine longitudinally into the Tiguan or run it full-time AWD.

[2005Explorer]

anyway

Mercury is only on HIATUS!!!

 

...can't wait until Lincoln gets the he!! outta their way

Nope Mercury is as dead as Oldsmobile... 6 ft under with flowers growing on top. Lincoln will never move upmarket enough to make a space between it and the highest trim level Fords. I suppose someday they might get tired of "Titanium" branding and could use "Mercury" as a trim level, but I don't think you will see that anytime soon. I understand you love the brand and wish it would come back, but it's not. Period. Heck it remains to be seen if Lincoln will even survive long term. It seems like the current management is supporting the brand, but I am sure they want to see positive results. The new product looks good, but making the Lincoln brand something that upper class people respect and aspire to own is going to take a lot of work.

Edited July 3, 2014 by 2005Explorer

[AlRozzi]

 

Thus someone who refuses to acknowledge Lincoln as a "true" luxury marque will always find a "reason" why Lincoln is not a "true" luxury marque.

Sports. Cars. Politics. They're ubiquitous!

 

Re: Lincoln. It irks me when I see auto writers make a claim that Lincoln isn't a luxury brand. Like you said, it's all relative. So, they draw a line just to the left of Lincoln so as not to include it? "If only it had one more button..."

 

Compared to 1976 even today's Fiesta is a luxury automobile.

[AlRozzi]

Al!!

 

imho it's a straight-forward proposition of only TownCar+Navigator as Lincolns

and everything else SO FAR as a Premium Brand

followed by a much higher "True Lux" rebirth (which imho they're just about ready for...& sounds a bit like your idea)

otoh

I played with a more involved 90's to 2015 alternate scenario elsewhere

( slide1, slide2... of six - if you're interested )

Thanks for the slides. I always appreciate you intriquing ideas.

[jpd80]

I just wished Ford had given Mercury one more product cycle to prove its worth

while it sorted out product development with Lincoln.

 

A revitalized Mercury that moved more upmarket by becoming reskinned Fords

would have allowed Lincoln mercury dealers access to a near full product line

from Tracer to Sable and Mariner to Mountaineer, maybe even a Cougar too..

Price entry could have begun at XLT/SE level and reached higher than Titanium

forcing the new Lincoln to become even higher grade product.

[akirby]

Don't forget a side benefit of killing Mercury was to get rid of marginal Lincoln dealers.

[ehaase]

Mercury had no purpose once the Grand Marquis died. Same with Lincoln and the Town Car - although Ford is trying with these new crossovers and the MKZ.

[jpd80]

Milan and Mariner were bigger sellers than Grand Marquis, provision of Tracer, Cougar and new D3 sable and Mountaineer could have swayed the argument and given Ford time to properly correct Lincoln instead of dancing round on one foot with talk of change far in front of delivery of any new vehicles.

 

I'm of the belief that if indeed, Mercury buyers had no interest in Ford brand, then, Mercury with lengthened wheelbases could have existed along side its Ford counterparts and simply added more sales for the sake of piddling amounts on differentiation, a Buick on the cheap while Lincoln was corrected and made with unique top hats.

 

I also understand Mulally's clarity of purpose with a single Ford brand but I do think the vote on mercury could have gone either way and I accept that the Ford of 2009 was still not as stable as the Ford of 2014, so maybe that leap of faith wasn't justified then.

Edited July 4, 2014 by jpd80

[AlRozzi]

Product branding is about differentiating and positioning products with the intention that consumers will recognize a unique value and be willing to pay for it. Ultimately a car is a car and a brand is just a name. Good brand management develops and maintains brand awareness. When consumers believe they are getting something from a brand that they cannot get anywhere else, they will be willing to pay a premium price for it.

 

An actual name does not matter. What matters is how well defined the name has become. It is about perception.

 

All Jeep models, for instance, could easily be sold by Dodge. One could only imagine how well that would work.

 

It is too late for the Mercury nameplate.

 

I am a believer in the value of good product branding. I do not believe having either more or having fewer brands is the problem but rather success depends upon how well a brand is managed. When properly managed profitable sales will follow.

[ehaase]

Milan and Mariner may have outsold the Grand Marquis in the last few years, but not historically. Ford made no meaningful update to the Grand Marquis since the 1992 model year, and the market for large cars died . There is no reason for Mercury, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac to exist any more, and Buick survives only because of China.

[twintornados]

Milan and Mariner have effectively been replaced by Fusion Titanium and Escape Titanium.....the VOGA editions will be re-created under the Vignale trim line.

[tzach]

I agree Mercury will probably never come back as a brand. If Ford were to ever do it though my idea would be to bring it back as an equal to Lincoln not a mid level offering. Have Lincoln be more "Mercedes, Audi, Lexus" and Mercury more "BMW". I am not saying go toe to toe with them but go in that direction as a brand identity.

[2b2]

I just wished Ford had given Mercury one more product cycle to prove its worth

while it sorted out product development with Lincoln...

just-imho

FoMoCo didn't DARE wait - theC557-Tracer would've made Merc unkillable

(esp open'n'shut lawsuits if they tried later)

 

 

...could have swayed the argument and given Ford time to properly correct Lincoln instead of dancing round on one foot with talk of change far in front of delivery of any new vehicles.

 

I'm of the belief that if indeed, Mercury buyers had no interest in Ford brand, then, Mercury with lengthened wheelbases could have existed along side its Ford counterparts and simply added more sales for the sake of piddling amounts on differentiation ... while Lincoln was corrected and made with unique top hats.

 

I also understand Mulally's clarity of purpose with a single Ford brand but I do think the vote on mercury could have gone either way and I accept that the Ford of 2009 was still not as stable as the Ford of 2014, so maybe that leap of faith wasn't justified then.

dunno about the clarity part but

considering lead-times

if the decision was made right after Mr. M. came onboard Fall'06,

the product-pipeline could've taken until 2010 to run dry

(therefore

the "Tracer" was smoke'n'mirrors from the get-go)

 

...If Ford were to ever do it though my idea would be to bring it back as an equal to Lincoln not a mid level offering. Have Lincoln be more "Mercedes, Audi, Lexus" and Mercury more "BMW". I am not saying go toe to toe with them but go in that direction as a brand identity.

mostly/sorta agree

I've said, "the FUN side of Lincoln", "just-less-than-pretentious", &

"deliberately didn't use the term 'lifestyle', as in 'active', but thought it"

[All-Or-Nothing]

Ha Ha.......people still think Mercury will come back.....LMAO

[2b2]

^