the bottom line?

[8A4RE]

It's not just gas prices. sales have been declining for the last few years. Bofore gas started to skyrocket? Why can't they sell anything? Is Fords reputation so F@#KED UP that customers won't even go into a Ford dealership? It not about boring designs either Ford has vehicles that compete in every segment yet ALL are in the shitter, WHY? There has to be a reason and gas prices aren't it.

 

We used to have an iron business so we had our share of trucks over the years that were used for delivery and snow removal for both the business and personal use, by far the best trucks were Ford F-250 4x4 HD's these trucks were severally punished and stood there ground well into the 150K range, As a Ford owner i can't help but notice how Ford is always last with new gadgets and toys, the stereo's always suck, I have an 06 ranger and the only thing I dislike about it is the cheap quality of the stereo system,

[F250]

Bullshit, and you know it 100%. All these excuses people make. Gas prices started rising heavily 4 years ago so don't say it was unforseen. Ford dropped the ball big time and a bunch of excuses won't fix the problem especiallhy when every other manufacturer(other than DCX) knew the problem years ago and now have products to combat the issue, whether it be from turcks that jumped greatly ikn fuel economy or the introduction of b-segment cars. Right now Ford has niether. Your first paragraph is such propaganda it is sickning. The market doesn't' care about ford's ability to conjure up excuse after excuse like this is a day care they care about products and ford has done a down right terrible job of giving the people what they want. The fusion and edge are their first decent offerings for the market.

 

Clearly you hate everything related to Ford Motor Company. Thanks for acknowledging the Fusion and Edge but you forgot the F-150 and Mustang which are both leaders in their markets.

 

Ford should shift production of Fusion to America and build the next generation of Focus at the Mexican slave labor plant. Then they could give them away at rock bottom prices to those people who can't afford gas or a reasonable new car payment and still make a good profit. This new Focus should have the same size and room as the current model but with even higher MPG ratings. Forget developing a stupid little B-sized car all of which are too small to be safe, too ugly to be seen and get only a few more MPG than a real 4-cyl sedan. Besides, their owners are making the statment "I am one broke son-of-a-bitch" and not very bright either because for the same money they could have bought a much better 2yr old used car.

[RichardJensen]

Actually, many people knew the market trend to higher commodity prices had started back in 2000

Ford is hardly the only industrial concern that did not foresee the length of this trend.

 

Gas prices started rising heavily 4 years ago so don't say it was unforseen.

No. It was five years ago, it was spikes in gasoline prices in spring of 2001, 2002, and 2003 due to refineries running at 90%+ capacity, and suffering equipment failures shutting down production, during the switch from heating oil to gasoline production. In 2003, the spring gas spike coincided with the beginning of the war in Iraq, which accompanied by increasing demand from China led to steadily higher oil prices. Subsequently oil prices have remained high even as production has been increased. The current oil prices were not only generally unpredicted, they are also largely unsupported by market conditions, and have done little to reduce demand. Very little of this oil price increase has been predictable, and contrary to what you say, it has not been steady, and it has had four distinctly different causes. As recently as 2004, oil futures for 2006 delivery were in the high $30s, low $40s, which suggests that the entire futures market was not prepared for sustained ludicrous oil prices.

 

Mexican slave labor plant.

Hermosillo is unionized, and Ford pays an exceptionally high wage for the employees there (I believe total wage and benefits comes to somewhere between $6-10/hour--or roughly what you get starting out at Wal-Mart in the states). Additionally, Ford feeds the employees on the line, at no cost, and Ford has built houses and schools in Mexico. 1.5 million students have graduated from schools built by Ford Motor Co. and Ford's Mexican dealers, since 1966.

 

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_dis...m?release=17799

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_dis...m?release=17264

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_dis...fm?release=4257

Edited August 20, 2006 by RichardJensen

[DCK]

Clearly you hate everything related to Ford Motor Company. Thanks for acknowledging the Fusion and Edge but you forgot the F-150 and Mustang which are both leaders in their markets.

 

Ford should shift production of Fusion to America and build the next generation of Focus at the Mexican slave labor plant. Then they could give them away at rock bottom prices to those people who can't afford gas or a reasonable new car payment and still make a good profit. This new Focus should have the same size and room as the current model but with even higher MPG ratings. Forget developing a stupid little B-sized car all of which are too small to be safe, too ugly to be seen and get only a few more MPG than a real 4-cyl sedan. Besides, their owners are making the statment "I am one broke son-of-a-bitch" and not very bright either because for the same money they could have bought a much better 2yr old used car.

No, i am just sick of excuse after excuse after excuse and no one ever blaming Ford for their problems. It is stupid, from Ford leaving vehicles on the market to die, lazy redesigns, bland styling, poor mpg and not introducing the right products at the right time. I didn't mention the F-150 and the mustang because the F-150 goes without saying and the mustang is the only vehicle in its class for now. Both of those vehicles were the only vehicle ford ever continued to get right. I Mentioned the fusion and edge because those two vehicles are new products ford got right in segments they have a failed miserably in. Oh yeah i must hate ford because i can acknowledge what a joke they have become and where they were heading if they continues the same old same old. You want change? You don't change by making up excuse after excuse after excuse because the market doesn't give two shits about excuses, you don't bring excuses to the market place you bring product, if you can't bring good product at competitive prices than you fail plain and simple.

 

Second I don't care if they move everything to Mexico, really. America makes it more difficult for their own companies to succeed than it is for foriegn companies to succeed. America is a country of self loathing, just look at the media, they love to hate everything america and american companies, so why the hell should ford care anymore.

 

About the B-segment cars what you said is bogus. First of all b-segment cars are a great market ploy where you can brag about mileage and price. It gets young into the brand quicker, raises the companies overall mpg and the market is growing rapidly. Toyota sold 10k yaris's in july, plus the scion line they are selling over 20k b-segment cars in july. Yeah ford just should continue what they are doing because look it how far it got them.....................

 

No. It was five years ago, it was spikes in gasoline prices in spring of 2001, 2002, and 2003 due to refineries running at 90%+ capacity, and suffering equipment failures shutting down production, during the switch from heating oil to gasoline production. In 2003, the spring gas spike coincided with the beginning of the war in Iraq, which accompanied by increasing demand from China led to steadily higher oil prices. Subsequently oil prices have remained high even as production has been increased. The current oil prices were not only generally unpredicted, they are also largely unsupported by market conditions, and have done little to reduce demand. Very little of this oil price increase has been predictable, and contrary to what you say, it has not been steady, and it has had four distinctly different causes. As recently as 2004, oil futures for 2006 delivery were in the high $30s, low $40s, which suggests that the entire futures market was not prepared for sustained ludicrous oil prices.

More excuses again. That whole paragraph doesn't really matter. Ford should have been investing in better fuel economy and better products instead of waiting and hoping gas prices would fall and not skyrocket. Toyota and Honda and to some extent even GM took action while ford sat on their ass. Who cares if Ford followed some peoples back then, they were 110% wrong, other auto companies saw something needed to be done and they did it, Ford decided to be lazy, why competitive right? Now they are paying a very large price, something that didn't need to happen if ford had the mindset to actually try to compete back then like they have now.

Edited August 20, 2006 by DCK

[igor]

Will Ford do all that here in America after we turn back into a third world country?

 

Good one ... unfortunately, there is little a company like FOrd can do to stop the slide in the US - they have very little wiggle room ... uplifting the Mexican area is quit echeap in comparison, and it still leaves the Mexianc operations profitable ...

 

Igor

[F250]

Hermosillo is unionized, and Ford pays an exceptionally high wage for the employees there (I believe total wage and benefits comes to somewhere between $6-10/hour--or roughly what you get starting out at Wal-Mart in the states). Additionally, Ford feeds the employees on the line, at no cost, and Ford has built houses and schools in Mexico. 1.5 million students have graduated from schools built by Ford Motor Co. and Ford's Mexican dealers, since 1966.

 

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_dis...m?release=17799

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_dis...m?release=17264

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_dis...fm?release=4257

 

Thanks for the links.

 

Let's see, Ford wants to take advantage of s.... no, no that's not accurate, we'll say VERY cheap labor in Mexico so they built Hermosillo (and other plants). But even though this Ford job is the best around the turnover rate excedes 50%. So Ford builds hundreds of 600 square foot homes (600 sq ft!?!) and then witholds money from the worker's Walmart-like pay to allow them to rent-to-own these huge dream homes. But quality is still a problem because of the totally inadequate Mexican education system so Ford builds small schools that have 6 classrooms each. I don't mean to make it sound like Ford is paying outright to build these schools. Quote from your link:"For every vehicle sold, a portion is earmarked for the school program and Ford matches the donation. When the proceeds reach 60 percent of the amount needed for construction, the dealers raise the additional amount through various fund-raising activities."

 

Yea, ok. How much do they charge for that Lincoln Zephyr? No thanks.

[silvrsvt]

Yea, ok. How much do they charge for that Lincoln Zephyr? No thanks.

 

 

So its ok for Ford to give away cars because it costs them next to nothing to build it in Mexico? If the Zephyer is too much money, could aways get a Fusion or Milan...

 

Ford is about making money, not giving cars away...

[RichardJensen]

Thanks for the links.

 

Let's see, Ford wants to take advantage of s.... no, no that's not accurate, we'll say VERY cheap labor in Mexico so they built Hermosillo (and other plants). But even though this Ford job is the best around the turnover rate excedes 50%. So Ford builds hundreds of 600 square foot homes (600 sq ft!?!) and then witholds money from the worker's Walmart-like pay to allow them to rent-to-own these huge dream homes. But quality is still a problem because of the totally inadequate Mexican education system so Ford builds small schools that have 6 classrooms each. I don't mean to make it sound like Ford is paying outright to build these schools. Quote from your link:"For every vehicle sold, a portion is earmarked for the school program and Ford matches the donation. When the proceeds reach 60 percent of the amount needed for construction, the dealers raise the additional amount through various fund-raising activities."

 

Yea, ok. How much do they charge for that Lincoln Zephyr? No thanks.

Ford has been building these schools since 1966. 20 years before Hermosillo was built, and they have, to date, taught 1.5M students, far more than the number of employees Ford has in Mexico. Obviously this is not being done to generate happy Ford employees doing quality work.

 

Ford pays for 30% of these schools. You can gripe that Ford isn't paying for all of the school, but it's a heckuva lot more than what GM, DCX, VW, and Toyota have done in Mexico.

 

Finally, Ford pays a living wage in Hermosillo. Just as they do in Michigan, Kentucky, Russia, Turkey, Thailand, Austrailia, Germany, Missouri, Britain, the Netherlands, Sweden, and Brazil. If you have a problem with Ford paying a living wage to unionized employees in Hermosillo, why not go root for GM or DCX.

 

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=23883

 

Ford has taken an even larger step over the past two years, becoming the first automotive company to extend worker standards to its global suppliers. It is the only automaker to train, assess and remediate among its first-tier supply base.

 

"Our emphasis is on working with our suppliers to assess and develop management systems to ensure proper working conditions," said Ian Olson, manager, supply chain sustainability. "That is why training is critical. The goal is not to police them but to have suppliers take ownership and make long-term positive changes."

 

Ford has assessed working conditions at more than 200 supplier plants, mostly in China, Central America, Mexico, Russia and Romania. The approach is to assess a sample and train all of the supplier sites in 17 identified emerging market. So far, Ford has discontinued the sourcing process for 10 suppliers for non-compliances or lack of cooperation.

 

Yeah. Ford is a terrible company. Look at how they exploit their workers.

Edited August 21, 2006 by RichardJensen

[kpc655]

It's not just gas prices. sales have been declining for the last few years. Bofore gas started to skyrocket? Why can't they sell anything? Is Fords reputation so F@#KED UP that customers won't even go into a Ford dealership? It not about boring designs either Ford has vehicles that compete in every segment yet ALL are in the shitter, WHY? There has to be a reason and gas prices aren't it.

 

I think the better question is "why dont people buy ford's like they used too". Ok, its almost the same question...but the focus from Ford needs to be on consumers and what they want, not "selling vehicles". I remember an argument i had in a class a few years ago about what a company's goal is....to make money or to get customers. The results (should) be the same, but how you get there and the sustainabilty is much different depending on your approach.

 

Ford can double their volume if they half the price, but that's not sustainable. Ford (and GM)'s sales are far to price sensitive when compared to their competition. When customer walk into a showroom and look at nothing but price, and maybe fuel mileage, you've lost the battle. When Ford and GM start offering more value to the consumer via better quality (Real or percieved), design, better accessories, better customer service, fuel economy etc etc...then they will stop their sales slide.

 

The guy on this board with the broken control arm is a perfect example of poor customer service and how far that information can get!

[judge]

I have to laugh at some of the stupid comments re: Panther buyers - too old, too fat, retired, etc. Who cares as long as the check is good. I've been driving RWD cars my whole life, and if Ford won't provide what I want, someone else will. I don't want a truck nor an SUV - just a full size RWD car with a lot of trunk space. Have you ever seen a CV advertised on TV, NEVER!! The GM is only advertised at the end of the year when they need to move out the old models. Ford does not promote the product (xcept trucks/suv) and they refuse to upgrade the Panther year after year. How do you expect to increase sales when you do NOTHING to improve the car?? With some good advertising and real improvements, the Panther could double sales in 2 to 3 years. Even the TC could do better - just upgrade the car & provide OPTIONS that people want. Remember when you could get a hugh list of options? I do. What happened??

[thirdmust]

Drop a decent Diesel the Panthers.

[Edgey]

I'm new to this forum but there seems to be an awful lot of panther evangelists out there! I thought the Taurkies (Taurus enthusiasts) were bad!

[BT]

We lovingly refer to them as "The Panther Mafia".

 

since I work at that plant I like too call them "My Friends"

[F250]

Yeah. Ford is a terrible company. Look at how they exploit their workers.

 

I never said they exploit their workers but I will not change my position on the Mexican issue. Ford building cars and making a profit in Mexico is great...for the Mexicans but I don't live in Mexico so I honestly don't care. I do care about America and American workers which apparently makes me a dinosour to many self-centerd bastards who hate this country.

 

I realize it would be hard to build a vehicle here in America and sell it for a profit in Mexico and that is why Ford should build cars there and sell them there and if profitable in central and south America as well. But don't throw Americans out of work and build vehicles in some 3rd world country for sale here so the company can pocket more profit because I will not buy it.

 

And it's amazing to read some of the true Ford haters around here claiming it's not about selling vehicles cheaper it's about the company making more profit, as if they care about Ford's future, then they continue to bash the company every chance they get. Hell, if it's all about the profit lets build the Volvos, Jaguars, Aston Martins and Range Rovers in America or Mexico because it cost a lot more to build those in Europe. No, I didn't think so. It's ok to screw Americans out of their jobs but all the other countries are "hands off."

 

As I recall Toyota's North American operations posted another record profit here last year, all of their highest volume vehicles are designed (Calty) and built here, Corolla, Camry, Sienna, Tacoma and Tundra. As far as I know all Toyotas sold in America are assembled in America, Canada or Japan and they definately make a profit.

 

Bottom line Richard is I guess we are not going to see eye-to-eye on this issue.