How about a 4L Ecoboost V8, now that the 6.2L is dead in the F150

[jpd80]

Seems kind of silly to me that Ford cannot come up with a common gasoline engine family for all Super Duty trucks.

If Ford wanted to, I'm sure the 3.5 EB V6 could replace the 6.2 in F250.

Probably costs more to change engines than any savings to Ford.

 

The 6.8 V10 is fine for 350 and 450..Mike L has already said that the 6.8 isn't going anywhere.

Edited January 26, 2014 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

Seems kind of silly to me that Ford cannot come up with a common gasoline engine family for all Super Duty trucks.

 

Why? Ford hasn't had a common gas V8 family since 1953.

[jpd80]

Ford also has to be careful if CAFE decides to include 2500 series trucks in calculations, there was some talk about this a few years back

and looming legislation / references were withdrawn last year - I think it caused a storm of protest in the industry behind the scenes.

Edited January 26, 2014 by jpd80

[94bronco]

Ford also has to be careful if CAFE decides to include 2500 series trucks in calculations, there was some talk about this a few years back

and looming legislation / references were withdrawn last year - I think it caused a storm of protest in the industry behind the scenes.

I believe the CAFE regulations for HD's are something along the lines of a 10% gain by 2020 ( Going by the mileage my truck gets that is right around a 1 MPG gain). So I don't think CAFE is really going to come in to play with HD's anytime soon, Thank God.

[94bronco]

If Ford wanted to, I'm sure the 3.5 EB V6 could replace the 6.2 in F250.

Probably costs more to change engines than any savings to Ford.

 

The 6.8 V10 is fine for 350 and 450..Mike L has already said that the 6.8 isn't going anywhere.

The EB 3.5 cannot "replace" the 6.2 in SD's, while I guess maybe it could be offered I don't think it would gain much traction. I along with many people don't care if the EB gets better power and mpg's I still want a big NA V8 and won't take anything less. So while they could offer it there still needs to be a highly competitive V8 option offered. The people buying SD's to drive daily without much of a load in the bed ever ( there are still plenty) are not the kind to care about how many barrels of oil they just burned in my experience.

The 6.8 is not offered in 350's, only 450 and 550 chassis.

[94bronco]

Seems kind of silly to me that Ford cannot come up with a common gasoline engine family for all Super Duty trucks.

Yes a 7.0 Boss would be a perfect motor for common application across the whole line.

[SoonerLS]

Why? Ford hasn't had a common gas V8 family since 1953.

I agree that it's not important, but what other gas V8 family was in production concurrently with the Mod Motors in the Super Duties?

[94bronco]

On cars.com, I looked up what ws available in F150 to F450 to see what was available

in terms of gasoline and diesel powered trucks:

 

- 89,535 are F150s.............Gasoline = 89,539 (all)

 

- 17,264 are F250s.............Gasoline = 5,855 , ..... Diesel = 10,494.......unknown = 915

 

- 10,589 are F350s.............Gasoline = 1,895 , ..... Diesel = 8,442.......unknown = 262

 

- 469 F450s........................Gasoline = 26 , ..... Diesel = 442

 

Around 33% of F250s are gasoline powered but only 20% of F350/450 are gasoline powered. so it looks like there's a case for the 6.2 V8 in F250

where numbers are still strong but it also looks like the F350 & 450 still needs the larger 6.8 V10 as a base engine due to its greater low end torque.

 

And clearly, there's a balancing act going on in the SD range between offering a base gasoline engine versus the much more popular 6.7 V8 Diesel,

a more efficient Ecoboost gasoline engine may be a welcome addition but would it draw sales away form those lofty diesel numbers.

Last I remember reading was 40% gas take rate in the SD with that number continuing to climb every year as people move away from EPA diesels. I am sure Ford spent a ton developing the 6.7 so they probably don't want anything that gets similar MPG to it in the SD, performance wise an EB will threaten the 6.7 which still has plenty of room to grow.

[jpd80]

Last I remember reading was 40% gas take rate in the SD with that number continuing to climb every year as people move away from EPA diesels. I am sure Ford spent a ton developing the 6.7 so they probably don't want anything that gets similar MPG to it in the SD, performance wise an EB will threaten the 6.7 which still has plenty of room to grow.

Or turn that around, nearly 75% of buyer now want the 6.7 Diesel and are prepared to pay for it.

The 2015 updates for diesel are exciting with the 6.7 looking like exceeding 900 lb ft,

 

 

The launch on the '14 version of the diesel is awesome, maybe why so many gas V8 buyers are converting...

Edited January 26, 2014 by jpd80

[94bronco]

Or turn that around, nearly 75% of buyer now want the 6.7 Diesel and are prepared to pay for it.

The 2015 updates for diesel are exciting with the 6.7 looking like exceeding 900 lb ft,

 

 

The launch on the '14 version of the diesel is awesome, maybe why so many gas V8 buyers are converting...

Where are you getting 75% from? Cars.com is not exactly the most reliable source for that kind of info. The numbers have been going the other way with diesels being dropped for gas, there is no disputing that.

Latest info. I can find is 65% are diesels.

http://www.businessfleet.com/channel/green-fleet/news/story/2010/03/ford-unveils-2011-super-duty-with-power-stroke-diesel-engine.aspx

 

"Diesel engines account for 65 percent of Super Duty sales," said Doug Scott, Truck Group marketing manager. "Increased biodiesel compatibility is something many of our customers have been looking for."

Edited January 26, 2014 by 94bronco

[jpd80]

Where are you getting 75% from? Cars.com is not exactly the most reliable source for that kind of info. The numbers have been going the other way with diesels being dropped for gas, there is no disputing that.

Latest info. I can find is 65% are diesels.

http://www.businessfleet.com/channel/green-fleet/news/story/2010/03/ford-unveils-2011-super-duty-with-power-stroke-diesel-engine.aspx

 

"Diesel engines account for 65 percent of Super Duty sales," said Doug Scott, Truck Group marketing manager. "Increased biodiesel compatibility is something many of our customers have been looking for."

 

I misspoke, it's actually two thirds of SDs, I know that the figure is slowly climbing away form the gas V8.

 

 

Roughly two-thirds of Ford's Super Duty customers buy their trucks with the Power Stroke diesel.

Ford will offer the improved diesel only in Super Duty pickups. Chassis cab models will continue with the current Power Stroke.

Ford said Tuesday that it installed its 500,000th 6.7-liter Power Stroke diesel in a truck at its Kentucky Truck Plant in Louisville.

The engine was introduced in 2010 for the 2011 model year.

Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130926/OEM04/130929932/ford-adds-improved-6.7-liter-v-8-diesel-engine-to-15-super-duty-pickup#ixzz2rThIWISe

Follow us: @Automotive_News on Twitter | AutoNews on Facebook

 

Edited January 26, 2014 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

I agree that it's not important, but what other gas V8 family was in production concurrently with the Mod Motors in the Super Duties?

 

Got me. Uh, the V10?

[jpd80]

OK, I'll change my POV a bit,

 

Super Duty has two very important buyer groups, gasoline and diesel and Ford needs to look after the needs of both.

It is in no one's best interests to let either fall behind. GM's 2500 now has an upgraded 6.2 DI, so Ford should respond

with incremental improvements on the 6.2 V8, be that DI or Mid Cam VCT improvements or both.

[papilgee4evaeva]

I agree that it's not important, but what other gas V8 family was in production concurrently with the Mod Motors in the Super Duties?

 

 

Got me. Uh, the V10?

 

It's the Boss, isn't it? The 6.8 as I understand it is also a Mod engine.

[RichardJensen]

 

 

It's the Boss, isn't it? The 6.8 as I understand it is also a Mod engine.

 

I said that Ford has had a bunch of unrelated gas V8s since the launch of the Y-block, but that's not quite true.

 

From the cancellation of the LS to the launch of the 6.2, Ford did have just the one V8 family in production. I *think* the Windsor was phased out right as Ford started building their version of the AJV8.

 

To Sooner's question, IIRC, the only gas V8 in the Super Duty, from its inception as a separate truck, was the 5.4. I don't think you could ever get it with the 4.6.

 

I think it was always 5.4, 6.8, and diesel.

Edited January 26, 2014 by RichardJensen

[94bronco]

OK, I'll change my POV a bit,

 

Super Duty has two very important buyer groups, gasoline and diesel and Ford needs to look after the needs of both.

It is in no one's best interests to let either fall behind. GM's 2500 now has an upgraded 6.2 DI, so Ford should respond

with incremental improvements on the 6.2 V8, be that DI or Mid Cam VCT improvements or both.

GM doesn't use the 6.2 in the 2500 due to it being an aluminum block, still using the 6.0 (GM seems to think its a good idea to build two low production V8's).

The HEMI 6.4 is used in the Ram HD's now though and has surpassed the 6.2.

[7Mary3]

True, Ford has not been much for sticking with 1 or 2 basic V-8 designs (at one point in the 70's Ford produced the Windsor, Cleveland/Mod, FE, FT, Lima, and Super Duty concurrently!). One good thing about the Mods was that they not only shared a lot of parts between them, but could be run down the same machine line, V-10 included. That is a very significant cost saving.

 

The current 6.8L V-10 is at the limit of the design's maximum displacement. Can't be bored or stroked.

 

And I agree, it does seem that the 6,2L did not live up to it's design intent. I believe it was supposed to replace the V-10 across the board.

[CurtisH]

The current 6.8L V-10 is at the limit of the design's maximum displacement. Can't be bored or stroked.

 

Pretty sure that's not true. It is based on the 5.4. Ford increased its displacement to 5.8. Seems like the 6.8 should be able to go to 7.3.

[351cid]

 

 

The current 6.8L V-10 is at the limit of the design's maximum displacement. Can't be bored or stroked.

 

And I agree, it does seem that the 6,2L did not live up to it's design intent. I believe it was supposed to replace the V-10 across the board.

 

Since the 6.8L V-10 is a 5.4L with a different crank (and 2 more cylinders), could the same practices not be applied that allowed the 5.4 to become a 5.8L? That would make a 443 cube (7.25L) V-10. Based on the 3V current engine, that would equate in estimate roughly 485-500 lb ft given advances in computer management and fuel delivery. Do you feel the reliability might be an issue because of constant demands vs occasional bursts? Keep in mind the 5.8L is supercharged vs the theoretical 7.25L being n/a.

 

John Kaase just built a 409 cube (5.4L based) MOD by using a 4.7" stroke (won the engine challenge, again). Seems that 'ole MOD motor still holds some secrets that need revealing.

[7Mary3]

Story I was told was that any increase in V-10 displacement would potentially effect reliability in truck/towing duty cycles. Now that was back when the Mods were relatively new, so maybe things have changed. However, just because the aftermarket does something doesn't mean it would pass the manufacturer's standards.

[RichardJensen]

Taking the 5.4 to 5.8 for the GT 500 is one thing, doing the same to the 6.8 to get it to 7.3 seems another.

 

Would some one refresh my memory--does the 6.8 use offset pins to keep the engine in balance?

Edited January 27, 2014 by RichardJensen

[old_fairmont_wagon]

I don't recall about the offset pins, but I do know that it uses a balance shaft that's driven off of one of the cam shafts. That's the entire reason that, though it does now have 3V heads, it doesn't have any VCT. The instant you would try to phase the cam, the balance shaft would go out of sync and, well, there'd be a whole lot of shaking going on.

As for displacement increases for the 6.8L V-10, any kind of factory boring would require very expensive cylinder liners or the same treatment process that the 5.0L gets. Not good for industrial grade usage. I believe that there is enough displacement there, but that Ford should take another stab at new heads for it. I suggest a DOHC, 4 valve head with variable intake cams and non-variable exhaust cams (Still need to drive the balance shaft). I believe that, combined with maybe a switch in the block to CGI to save some weight, and you could have something that's untouchable by the competition.

 

As for the 6.2L V8, from what we've gotten from OldWizard and others over time, its capable of factory displacement numbers up to 7.0L, 4V heads, and can potentially have GDI. On a test bench some place, Ford has one at 7.0L with twin turbos producing other-worldly power numbers. The problem with big power increases for the Hurricane, is that it isn't reliable at those power numbers. All of this has been hashed about on this very forum several times.

[jpd80]

Taking the 5.4 to 5.8 for the GT 500 is one thing, doing the same to the 6.8 to get it to 7.3 seems another.

 

Would some one refresh my memory--does the 6.8 use offset pins to keep the engine in balance?

 

 

 

Offset pins to achieve the 72 degrees needed for even fire, this upsets the balance so Ford placed one balance shaft on top of the Left Bank.

 

I sometimes wonder if making a 6.2 V10 off the Coyote 5.0 truck version would nett a nicer engine with full VCT, a shorter stroke allowing the

retention shared pin odd fire shared crank and eliminating balance shaft. - in truck form, such an engine would yield 450 hp and 470 lb ft.

Edited January 27, 2014 by jpd80

[jpd80]

GM doesn't use the 6.2 in the 2500 due to it being an aluminum block, still using the 6.0 (GM seems to think its a good idea to build two low production V8's).

The HEMI 6.4 is used in the Ram HD's now though and has surpassed the 6.2.

 

It looks like GM is doing the minimum to upgrade engines, keeping existing machining by adding DI and VCT to 4.3, 5.3 and now 6.2.

Like many I was expecting GM to upgrade the Silverado 2500's 6.0 to a 6.2 Gen 5 but maybe that won't ever happen,

 

For 2015, Ford is adding new mid cam VCT tech to the 3.7 and 5.0 engines giving an increase in mid range torque,

the same upgrade to the 6.2 would give it a bit more poke in the Super Duty...

Edited January 27, 2014 by jpd80

[theoldwizard]

If they dropped the 6.2L from the F150 I think that's a foregone conclusion. A 5.0L EB or 4.6L EB would make more sense.

Might it also be possible that Ford is going to one single V8 architecture?

 

A "one family" V8 for all applications has been a "grail hunt" for many, MANY years. The 6.2L was the latest failed attempt. Early prototypes of the "baby brother" got very poor fuel economy.

 

The real question is, what is Ford going to do with the 6.2L for use in the SuperDuty and Medium Duty applcations. Both the 6.2L and the old 6.8L are woefully under powered for the upper end of the Medium Duty product line.