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newworld

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What do 2 tier labor contracts and The Affordable Care Act (Obama Care) have in common? They both take from the young and give to the old. 2nd tier, younger workers work for less so older workers don't have to take cuts. Younger people are forced to, and are needed to, buy insurance to lower the cost of older sicker folks.

Eliminate pensions for young people so as to protect the benefits older workers. Think about it and everywhere you turn around the young are making sacrifices for us old farts. Could this create a new Generation Gap? A financial one? Is it proof Seniors vote and young people don't?

Will economic growth give our young people the same opportunities we had, or are we looking at the biggest ponzi scheme in American history?

P.S. I'm over 50

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Are the 2nd Tier workers making $15 an hour? Just asking . . . Heard an interview of a demonstrator at Mc Donalds wanting $15 an hour and then was asked if he would give up his ETB card (Not sure what 3 letters they are) and he said "NO WAY, I want it all." Yet our young second tier work much harder. Should have never had a 2 Tier system. They need parity in 90 days. JMO. . . .

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The big question though is what are us 1st tier willing to do to make it happen. Would you walk the picket line for your younger brothers, sons, co-workers? Are we all in this together or will we continue to let the company divide to conquer? That's what they are doing, it's in their long term play book. Labor consultants have been advising companies since the 80's to take this tac with unions. And it's always been sucessesful. If the history of organized labor in recent years is any indication, this may well be the beginning of the end for us.

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The big question though is what are us 1st tier willing to do to make it happen. Would you walk the picket line for your younger brothers, sons, co-workers? Are we all in this together or will we continue to let the company divide to conquer? That's what they are doing, it's in their long term play book. Labor consultants have been advising companies since the 80's to take this tac with unions. And it's always been sucessesful. If the history of organized labor in recent years is any indication, this may well be the beginning of the end for us.

rest assured that if it came down to a picket line, it would be 2nd tier picketing to bring us 1st tier down to their level as to give themselves any kind of financial advance.

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rest assured that if it came down to a picket line, it would be 2nd tier picketing to bring us 1st tier down to their level as to give themselves any kind of financial advance.

This comment proves my point, divide and conquer, it's working. You speak like it's us versis them. It's time we all started working on our plan B's, or personal back-up plans. With no solidarity we're a lost cause.

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This comment proves my point, divide and conquer, it's working. You speak like it's us versis them. It's time we all started working on our plan B's, or personal back-up plans. With no solidarity we're a lost cause.

 

Ever wonder what part our leadership has played in the "divide and conquer" process? Who is suppling the ammo or aiding in this war on labor? Ever wonder about leaders that called for air strikes and had the wrong co ordinances? If it happens on the field.... why not on the floor of the plants?

 

Decker

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Our leaders are in a desprite situation and need to start thinking outside the box. They lack the leadership skills needed for these very trying times. They are use to the old world way's, like many of us, and are at a loss for the modern solutions needed. They may have also givin up, thinking the best way is to, simply prolong and hang on until a new generation comes up. We need a younger group, and perhaps a leadership from outside the Auto Industry to see the forest beyond the tree's. Not likely to happen givin the where and how we get leadership. Look what an outsider has done for Ford. I'm not optimistic. The only thing that can turn it around is a labor shortage, unemployment below 4%. Not likely, not at all. But then who would have predicted the 90's after what we went through in the 80's.

Edited by newworld
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Interesting you mention "labor shortage".....

 

If in the near future the people at Micky D`s and Burger King get their request for $15 an hour (which I support) how many tier 2 people will be willing to come in to do the labor at the Big 3?

 

Looking back at the results of the 80`s and then the climb out of the down turn which was the 90`s there was major differences from today, we were never put against each other on an hourly rate basis and the hope of such things as reaching full pay and benefits was do able. Along with the knowledge that the more you were willing to put in the more you would earn.

 

But today..... our tier 2 people have been given nothing but hollow talk when it comes to tier 1 rates. They have been put through the TPT, Super TPT, LTS and now tier 2 mill and they have been paying dues for this treatment from day one and then being reassured they should be thankful for having a job. Then roll in the factors of losing OT premiums under the disguise of adding more members/employees under a schedule (AWS) that has the companies benefits wrote all over it. But the people should not lose hope or should stay united for the cause....

 

Why is the membership so willing to sit back and allow the clock to be turned back to what caused the uniting of people in the work place so many years ago...? What has happened to the union ideology? Equal pay for equal work.....

 

Decker

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Our 2nd tier contract provisions are not unique. These kind of contracts have been around since the 80's. The UAW has resisted them, for good reason. Up until recently they have not had to cave to these divide and conquer tactics. It's a desparate move to save existing member compensation positions. A sellout of the next generation to save the current. Too many of us use the excuse that "they knew when they came in" as an out. This makes it fair? The unions that have taken these 2 tier contracts have never recovered thier 2nd tier even during good times. They tend to, over time, be baked into the future. These contracts have mostly led to a gradual decline in overall wages and benefits for ALL workers over time. Using the historical experience of other unions, these contracts do not bode well for ALL UAW members. Given the structural changes taken place in the economy this may not just be a temporary fluke, but a permanant condition. Will we ever regain what we had? Not with out a fight. A fight That the international may not be up to. A fight that the membership may not be up to. In other words........Not likely.

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Interesting you mention "labor shortage".....

 

If in the near future the people at Micky D`s and Burger King get their request for $15 an hour (which I support) how many tier 2 people will be willing to come in to do the labor at the Big 3?

 

Looking back at the results of the 80`s and then the climb out of the down turn which was the 90`s there was major differences from today, we were never put against each other on an hourly rate basis and the hope of such things as reaching full pay and benefits was do able. Along with the knowledge that the more you were willing to put in the more you would earn.

 

But today..... our tier 2 people have been given nothing but hollow talk when it comes to tier 1 rates. They have been put through the TPT, Super TPT, LTS and now tier 2 mill and they have been paying dues for this treatment from day one and then being reassured they should be thankful for having a job. Then roll in the factors of losing OT premiums under the disguise of adding more members/employees under a schedule (AWS) that has the companies benefits wrote all over it. But the people should not lose hope or should stay united for the cause....

 

Why is the membership so willing to sit back and allow the clock to be turned back to what caused the uniting of people in the work place so many years ago...? What has happened to the union ideology? Equal pay for equal work.....

 

Decker

If they get there $15 there will be many less working there in due time. There will be much more automation and less jobs.

 

Just wondering why you support $15 an hour to flip burgers?

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If they get there $15 there will be many less working there in due time. There will be much more automation and less jobs.

 

Just wondering why you support $15 an hour to flip burgers?

The same reason you support a "factory worker" making $28 an hour. Or a tradesman making $32. In relative terms, yea. Alot of people say the same about us, right? How dare you ask such a question.

Edited by newworld
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Fast Food workers getting $15 an hour? Well, I say let them try. If the market will bare it, then I'll be happy for them. If not, then they will probably be automated out of thier jobs. It's their risk, not mine. Their choice, not mine. I say more power to them. I am willing to pay, what I'm willing to pay. No one will force me to buy thier products if it makes them too expensive. I have heard though that $15 an hour McDonalds workers would cause a Big Mac to rise from $3 to $3.50. I will reserve my right to pay it. (I probably would.)

In other words, why does it upset so many? It's the same crap I hear when the UAW negotiates $28-$32 for my job. If Ford's get to expensive, then they don't have to buy them. It's our risk to go after such wages. I would say though, given some of the work that I know that pay's $15 an hour, that they would be in for alot more competion for those jobs, So it's not just automation they risk.

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If they get there $15 there will be many less working there in due time. There will be much more automation and less jobs.

 

Just wondering why you support $15 an hour to flip burgers?

 

I support a hourly rate that will support a middle class life style. $15 was referencing the fact that $15 is not the level to be a middle class consumer.

 

Flippin burger or assembling Fords.... $15 won`t allow for supporting the middle class life style. But a raise in there hourly rate is progress.

 

Decker

Edited by Decker
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I support a hourly rate that will support a middle class life style. $15 was referencing the fact that $15 is not the level to be a middle class consumer.

 

Flippin burger or assembling Fords.... $15 won`t allow for supporting the middle class life style. But a raise in there hourly rate is progress.

 

Decker

McDonald's is not supposed to be a middle class job either. I guess things are getting more complicated now but those were jobs for the young to get in to the job market and learn or for others to have supplemental income.

 

I don't think there is a comparison between the 2 jobs also.

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The same reason you support a "factory worker" making $28 an hour. Or a tradesman making $32. In relative terms, yea. Alot of people say the same about us, right? How dare you ask such a question.

If those lot of people try working at Ford it would be a different story. Many have not ever experienced it and have no clue what we go through where as most have experience in a entry level job into the work force. They are 2 totally different things.

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If those lot of people try working at Ford it would be a different story. Many have not ever experienced it and have no clue what we go through where as most have experience in a entry level job into the work force. They are 2 totally different things.

Would you agree then to let the market dictate wages? If the market is good enough for them then you have to agree it's good enough for us. My problem with the market setting wages is that it does not always reflect the effort/work involved. If we let the market dictate our wages would it be a true measure of our effort. It's more than just "2 totally different things". It's many. Nothing drives me more crazy than someone saying I don't deserve a middle class living because I did not go to college. You know what I'm talking about, friend. Likewise I will leave the wages of others up to others, my opinion to myself, because I know what it's like. I say whatever they can get, more power to 'em. They are not likely to get $15 but that's not for me to say no more than it is for others to say what we deserve. And be sure I'm not comparing their effort to what we do, no more than I'm saying they need to be paid the same as us. $28 an hour compared to $15 an hour. There is a difference, almost double., And please understand, no one is saying they need to make a middleclass living. Just maybe enough to get them off public assistance, which many are. Have you been to a Walmart of McDonalds lately, it's rarely kids anymore. Hell, the kid's today can barely find work because of all the adults taking these low wage jobs today.

Edited by newworld
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McDonald's is not supposed to be a middle class job either. I guess things are getting more complicated now but those were jobs for the young to get in to the job market and learn or for others to have supplemental income.

 

I don't think there is a comparison between the 2 jobs also.

 

Maybe somewhere in this country the Mcdonald`s are still out fitted with juniors and seniors from the near by high school but around here, not so much. In this part of the world you will see single parents and the retired along with many others trying to make a living to support families and extended family members. I guess I didn`t give a clear view of why I support a living wage for members of the lower tier of the working class of this country, I don`t see this class of worker (people) being the "supposed" to be people you refer too. I see more and more those that have the need to support their families that have had to take on more than one job to supplement there earnings because they can`t find the level of employment (earnings) that used to be there and supplied the earnings that is needed to do just that, "be middle class".

 

You know what I`m talking about fmccap....when it comes to the level that you earn doing the same work that a tier 2 member dosen`t make. It becomes easy to say how things "supposed to be" when we are earning what we are earning. Once again you`re showing the "us" and "them" type of separation. Maybe you just don`t see those "not supposed to be`s".... or those in your zone that should just be thankful to work for half.

 

Decker

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It will be interesting to see what happens in the next round of bargaining with respect to the 2cd tier pay rate and benefits. IMHO, the 2cd tier should be brought up to the 1st tier or as close as possible. As autoworkers we are all the same and should be treated the same in all aspects of the job.

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Would I walk the picket line to make it better? . . . Sure, and I did back in the 70's (in the rain, snow & cold) with Bob King,(my committeeman back then) but when he came to visit us at the DTP and started the crap of more concessions, I began to speak (NO MORE!) to him about all the things we walked for back then and have given them back, (PPH Days was a nice feature at one time)(and he wanted to give away more) to NEVER see them again. . . I was literally push back by thugs along with the younger ones who wanted to sell out for a $1000 to settle for more give backs. . . Picket Lines now? Huh, not in 100 years. . .

 

It will be the responsibility of the young, educated and strong workers, with Pride, (and the fire within them) to find the leverage, motivation and the convincing dialog to bring along the New Union to the forefront. . . It will take time, but it's not impossible!!!

Edited by DTPrt
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What do 2 tier labor contracts and The Affordable Care Act (Obama Care) have in common? They both take from the young and give to the old. 2nd tier, younger workers work for less so older workers don't have to take cuts. Younger people are forced to, and are needed to, buy insurance to lower the cost of older sicker folks.

Eliminate pensions for young people so as to protect the benefits older workers. Think about it and everywhere you turn around the young are making sacrifices for us old farts. Could this create a new Generation Gap? A financial one? Is it proof Seniors vote and young people don't?

Will economic growth give our young people the same opportunities we had, or are we looking at the biggest ponzi scheme in American history?

P.S. I'm over 50

You knew that when you took the job, so that was the condition of your employment, no one forced you to make that choice

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