Jump to content

Some tutorials on the new software have been pinned here.

  • Custom Search


PREMiERdrum

Ford up 6%, Industry reports September sales

Recommended Posts

Funny, when it's a GM platform, you have to prove that it IS making money. When it's a Ford platform you have to prove it ISN'T making money.

Well, when you say that Lincoln isn't making money in the face of evidence that it has been, that's a different story entirely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Funny, when it's a GM platform, you have to prove that it IS making money. When it's a Ford platform you have to prove it ISN'T making money.

 

Gotta love it.

 

It's not the manufacturer, it's the platform and the number of sales on that platform. You know, like common sense.

 

For instance, if platform x is selling 100k/month and platform y is selling 5k/month, which one would you think is more likely to be questioned?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, when you say that Lincoln isn't making money in the face of evidence that it has been, that's a different story entirely.

 

What evidence?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What evidence?

 

A - ford says it is which should be enough.

 

B - ATPs are high with low incentives

 

C - every platform and factory is shared with higher volume products

 

If anyone can't understand that then they're trolling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Funny, when it's a GM platform, you have to prove that it IS making money. When it's a Ford platform you have to prove it ISN'T making money.

 

Gotta love it.

 

No - you just need to possess a little common sense to understand it. Something you have none of.

 

Troll.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What evidence?

Someone posted a snippet from an article earlier this year wherein someone from Ford said that Lincoln was profitable. I don't recall in which thread I saw it, but I'm pretty sure it was one of the recent locked threads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Funny, when it's a GM platform, you have to prove that it IS making money. When it's a Ford platform you have to prove it ISN'T making money.

 

Gotta love it.

Oh FFS, another strawman

 

The point being made is whether the return on a dedicated platform like Alpha is justified given the lowish sales.

Maybe you'd like to help GM out by buying one of it 17,000 odd ATS in inventory, I'm sure no one here would object.....

Edited by jpd80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="grbeck" data-cid="875094" data-time="1381179632"><p>

<br />

Part of the problem is that GM is pitching the ATS as a direct competitor to the BMW 3-series, but every comparison test I've seen has it placing behind not only the BMW, but also the Lexus IS.<br />

<br />

We can bash comparison tests as biased or unfair, but if potential buyers aren't given a compelling reason to visit the Cadillac dealer to check out its latest offering, they will not do so. A few first-place finishes in direct comparison tests would definitely give the Cadillac a needed boost.<br />

<br />

If you are going up against the class leader, you'd better have a product that can withstand comparison. "Almost as good" isn't going to cut it. </p></blockquote>

 

Devils advocate, how many comparisons the new MKZ won against TL, Lacrosse and Es350?. Since its not "good enough" against the fwd competition Ford shouldn't try to reform Lincoln using that logic. Please name a model that "got it right" the 1st time.

Edited by Fgts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hate how my post don't keep quote boxes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I hate how my post don't keep quote boxes

Try using full editor, that sometimes cures the machine code glitches.

 

 

Devils advocate, how many comparisons the new MKZ won against TL, Lacrosse and Es350?. Since its not "good enough" against the fwd competition Ford shouldn't try to reform Lincoln using that logic. Please name a model that "got it right" the 1st time.

I can understand what you're saying and Ford has been playing Lincoln within very safe ground with

past differentiation limited to a reskin and better trim/equipment levels. In the recent past that would

have probably been enough but better competition and a stronger Ford brand is forcing Lincoln

to be much more and go higher. While MKZ is an improvement, Lincoln can do much better

and hopefully we see that with the coming MKC and replacement MKX and MKS.

 

I think LaCrosse has run its course, it's not selling nearly as well as it did previously,

maybe it's time for Buick to have its own version of the Impala/XTS with full size trunk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I hate how my post don't keep quote boxes

 

You can always quote text by using the following commands:

 

[/quote.]

 

remove the period after quote for it work properly

Edited by silvrsvt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Devils advocate, how many comparisons the new MKZ won against TL, Lacrosse and Es350?. Since its not "good enough" against the fwd competition Ford shouldn't try to reform Lincoln using that logic. Please name a model that "got it right" the 1st time.

 

The difference comes to what the investment was in trying to compete with those other vehicles. "Good enough" can at least profitably be improved upon over time if you aren't betting the farm on the platform you're using.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Devils advocate, how many comparisons the new MKZ won against TL, Lacrosse and Es350?. Since its not "good enough" against the fwd competition Ford shouldn't try to reform Lincoln using that logic.

 

 

 

The difference is that GM has been very straightforward about the ATS being targeted at the BMW 3-Series, while I haven't heard Ford specifically state that the MKZ is targeted at any particular model.

 

GM's statements to the enthusiast press about the ATS, along with the televisions commercials and print ads for the car, make it pretty clear that it is aimed directly at the BMW 3-Series. This virtually begs for the "buff books" to conduct a comparison test (so far, I've seen comparison tests in Car and Driver, Motor Trend and Road and Track).

 

When the ATS fails to beat not only the 3-Series, but also the Lexus IS, in comparison tests, potential customers therefore have one less reason to visit their Cadillac dealer instead of their BMW dealer. Especially when BMW, as a marque, carries more prestige and cachet in their circles than Cadillac does (like it or not).

 

With the MKZ, the message from Ford has been, "This is the first step in the new direction of Lincoln." I haven't read where Ford has specifically targeted this car at the Lexus ES, although the two do seem to be natural competitors.

 

 

Please name a model that "got it right" the 1st time.

 

 

Are you referring to the first edition of an all-new model, or a complete revamp of an existing model? Because I can think of several examples of vehicles in each category that were "right" immediately upon introduction:

 

1973 Honda Civic

1976 Honda Accord

1977 "downsized" Chevrolet Impala/Caprice

1986 Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable

1986 Acura Legend

1990 Lexus LS

2001 Ford Escape

2006 Ford Fusion

Edited by grbeck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you referring to the first edition of an all-new model, or a complete revamp of an existing model? Because I can think of several examples of vehicles in each category that were "right" immediately upon introduction:

 

1973 Honda Civic

1976 Honda Accord

1977 "downsized" Chevrolet Impala/Caprice

1986 Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable

1986 Acura Legend

1990 Lexus LS

2001 Ford Escape

2006 Ford Fusion

 

No '64 1/2 Mustang?? *gasp*

 

And well, while the 2001 Escape was "right" for the market in terms of sales, it was anything but "right" in terms of quality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No '64 1/2 Mustang?? *gasp*

 

And well, while the 2001 Escape was "right" for the market in terms of sales, it was anything but "right" in terms of quality.

 

I didn't want to go back that far. You could go back to the Model T, the Model A, the 1935 Packard 120, the 1955 Chevrolet and the 1955 Chrysler 300, as they were all "right" from day one.

 

As for the Escape - in the long run, its basic design and abilities outweighed the initial quality glitches. The vehicle has been a huge success for Ford.

Edited by grbeck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Devils advocate, how many comparisons the new MKZ won against TL, Lacrosse and Es350?. Since its not "good enough" against the fwd competition Ford shouldn't try to reform Lincoln using that logic. Please name a model that "got it right" the 1st time.

 

To answer, there haven't been any such comparison tests. At least none that I've been able to find through a quick Google search.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

The difference is that GM has been very straightforward about the ATS being targeted at the BMW 3-Series, while I haven't heard Ford specifically state that the MKZ is targeted at any particular model.

 

GM's statements to the enthusiast press about the ATS, along with the televisions commercials and print ads for the car, make it pretty clear that it is aimed directly at the BMW 3-Series. This virtually begs for the "buff books" to conduct a comparison test (so far, I've seen comparison tests in Car and Driver, Motor Trend and Road and Track).

 

When the ATS fails to beat not only the 3-Series, but also the Lexus IS, in comparison tests, potential customers therefore have one less reason to visit their Cadillac dealer instead of their BMW dealer. Especially when BMW, as a marque, carries more prestige and cachet in their circles than Cadillac does (like it or not).

 

With the MKZ, the message from Ford has been, "This is the first step in the new direction of Lincoln." I haven't read where Ford has specifically targeted this car at the Lexus ES, although the two do seem to be natural competitors.

 

 

 

 

Are you referring to the first edition of an all-new model, or a complete revamp of an existing model? Because I can think of several examples of vehicles in each category that were "right" immediately upon introduction:

 

1973 Honda Civic

1976 Honda Accord

1977 "downsized" Chevrolet Impala/Caprice

1986 Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable

1986 Acura Legend

1990 Lexus LS

2001 Ford Escape

2006 Ford Fusion

Ok I get the difference between a targeted competitor and a natural one, as you mentioned GM did state that the ATS is a 3 competitor but again the ATS sits on the CTS and future Camaro platform. The point I was making is a performance platform don't have to be a 500,000+ unit seller.

 

Another note you forgot the 84 Caravan, 91 Explorer as some that was successful from the start.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference is that GM has been very straightforward about the ATS being targeted at the BMW 3-Series, while I haven't heard Ford specifically state that the MKZ is targeted at any particular model.

 

Ford directly referenced the Lexus ES350 in the press release for the 2013 MKZ. In fact, they directly referenced it 6 times.

Edited by EBFlex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Ford directly referenced the Lexus ES350 in the press release for the 2013 MKZ. In fact, they directly referenced it 6 times.

Good factual post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Ford directly referenced the Lexus ES350 in the press release for the 2013 MKZ. In fact, they directly referenced it 6 times.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

Have the "buff books" tested the MKZ against the ES350? I don't believe I've seen any comparison tests with the MKZ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

Have the "buff books" tested the MKZ against the ES350? I don't believe I've seen any comparison tests with the MKZ.

 

I checked earlier. Haven't found any.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holy crap. A correct statement that can be independently verified. I'm impressed.

 

Don't flatter yourself, it happens more than you choose to admit.

 

I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

Have the "buff books" tested the MKZ against the ES350? I don't believe I've seen any comparison tests with the MKZ.

 

Doesn't matter, they're all crap anyway according to all the professional automotive reviewers on this site.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Don't flatter yourself, it happens more than you choose to admit.

 

And we're back to status quo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×