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Ford up 6%, Industry reports September sales

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They are going to have to trade it, I don' t think there is another option. It makes sense in the business case for short term profits. The issue is when someone that was going to buy and Escape can't get what they want and goes and gets a CRV/Rav4, that customer could be gone for life and never into a Lincoln. I think 300K Escapes a year plus 30-40K MKC's is a real number for the US if sales keep increasing like is projected over the next few years. The MKC will be Lincoln's best selling vehicle.

Well if Ford is maxing out the production volume either way, ask yourself this: is it better for an Escape buyers to not find the vehicle they want and to go buy a Rav4 instead or is it better for a MKC buyers to not find the vehicle they want and go buy a Lexus instead?

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How much did CTS, the new CTS, and the ATS cost to develop and put into production? How much the MKZ?

 

That wasn't the Question, is the MKZ a better car than the ATS or CTS?

 

Name a company that develops mediocre products that out performs a company that develops superior products, hint.. It happens all the time.

 

My point is no one should get too carried away with we out sold Caddy, because the MKZ is merely adequate and excels at being a product that inspires neither passion or disdain, a very ominous start for a product that is supposed to resurrect a brand.

 

As to the profitability of the ATS or CTS No one knows how profitable or unprofitable these products are. My guess is that they are designed to be profitable at the volumes they were going to be sold at. this also includes Export sales to china and the Rest of the world. After all these aren't cheap cars, there is always a natural cushion with them.

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My point is no one should get too carried away with we out sold Caddy, because the MKZ is merely adequate and excels at being a product that inspires neither passion or disdain, a very ominous start for a product that is supposed to resurrect a brand.

 

That's your opinion. Mine is that people who own 'em probably feel a whole lot different and they'll be talking to their friends and associates, a very auspicious start for a product that is supposed to resurrect a brand. You see, those with a negative predisposition like yourself would never "ask the man who owns one", because your mind is already made up. But those who have no negative predisposition may like the way it looks and do precisely that. Word-of-mouth is the best any company can get. Again, time will tell. :)

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It is clear that ATS has not lived up to GM's sales expectation - given the huge inventory....

And..... CTS sales have been attributed to old Sigma models being quick sailed,

I can't see the new much more expensive CTS being that big of a sales hit.....

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And hybrids are just one example of what Ford is capable of when it focuses energy

on maximizing returns from investing in new technology, the new Electric CVT is a marvel.

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It is clear that ATS has not lived up to GM's sales expectation - given the huge inventory....

And..... CTS sales have been attributed to old Sigma models being quick sailed,

I can't see the new much more expensive CTS being that big of a sales hit.....

the US is marginal market of the ATS the target for this product is China not the US.

 

Even if it doesn't meet expectations it doesn't mean It failed because of Its platform, it could simply mean buyers are turned off by it's styling, as may be the case for Cadillac in China.

 

you can not run a successful company that is wholly focused on making safe products.

 

That's your opinion. Mine is that people who own 'em probably feel a whole lot different and they'll be talking to their friends and associates, a very auspicious start for a product that is supposed to resurrect a brand. You see, those with a negative predisposition like yourself would never "ask the man who owns one", because your mind is already made up. But those who have no negative predisposition may like the way it looks and do precisely that. Word-of-mouth is the best any company can get. Again, time will tell. :)

 

Time will tell.

Edited by Biker16

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The US is marginal market of the ATS the target for this product is China not the US.

 

Even if it doesn't meet expectations it doesn't mean It failed because of Its platform, it could simply mean buyers are turned off by it's styling, as may be the case for Cadillac in China.

 

you can not run a successful company that is wholly focused on making safe products.

. ATS was primarily conceived to compete with BMW 3 series but now you're saying China might be the main market.for ATS - I'd call that second prize at best.

From what i see, Cadillac basically tore the mid sized CT market in two with very little probably of increasing sales over providing a single replacement vehicle.

That's where i see added cost with Cadillac's strategy.- I don't have a problem with RWD, just GM execution of what should be a straight forward car.

Edited by jpd80

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the new Electric CVT is a marvel.

 

I am conflicted about it because Ford has developed a one size fits all power-pack, that isn't flexible enough to scale up into ,larger vheicle and is too powerfull to be optimized for smaller vehicles where the bulk of HEV sales Globally are coming from.

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. ATS was primarily conceived to compete with BMW 3 series but now you're saying China might be the main market.for ATS - I'd call that second prize at best.

From what i see, Cadillac basically tore the mid sized CT market in two with very little probably of increasing sales over providing a single replacement vehicle.

That's where i see added cost with Cadillac's strategy.- I don't have a problem with RWD, just GM execution of what should be a straight forward car.

you cannot base the sales of any compact luxury vehicle on Us sales alone. GM had a plan to take cadliac global and the ATS was a critical product to make that happen.

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I am conflicted about it because Ford has developed a one size fits all power-pack, that isn't flexible enough to scale up into ,larger vheicle and is too powerfull to be optimized for smaller vehicles where the bulk of HEV sales Globally are coming from.

I doubt there would be too much problem with increasing/decreasing either ICE engine size or electric drive motor size.

I see it more a case of Ford going with a suite of vehicles where sales probability and recognition will help future expansion plans.

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you cannot base the sales of any compact luxury vehicle on Us sales alone. GM had a plan to take cadliac global and the ATS was a critical product to make that happen.

No but it's a good litmus test for Cadillac, springing forth into Europe while in a deep auto recession is not a good idea....

ATS was primarily designed to take on 3 series, you want Cadillac to try their luck in parochial Europe where Cadillac is a foreign car?

This is turning into another ill thought out GM plan but hopefully, the very profitable and larger CTS can pull back some of the project costs.

Edited by jpd80

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No but it's a good litmus test for Cadillac, springing forth into Europe while in a deep auto recession is not a good idea....

ATS was primarily designed to take on 3 series, you want Cadillac to try their luck in parochial Europe where Cadillac is a foreign car?

This is turning into another ill thought out GM plan but hopefully, the very profitable and larger CTS can pull back some of the project costs.

 

IMHO, where all the PD wizards and number jerkers went sort of blind was that after great expense, GM brought forth a single competitor for just one model of the 3-series and if anything, the ATS has robbed the CTS of its momentum in the market, as there was a CTS coupe and wagon that might have arrived at sort of the same time as the new CTS sedan, but that's not happening. What was the hurry to get a 3-series competitor to market?

 

IMHO, Lincoln has been wise to stay out of it, and work on the 5-size MKZ and do a new 7-size MKS. :)

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IMHO, where all the PD wizards and number jerkers went sort of blind was that after great expense, GM brought forth a single competitor for just one model of the 3-series and if anything, the ATS has robbed the CTS of its momentum in the market, as there was a CTS coupe and wagon that might have arrived at sort of the same time as the new CTS sedan, but that's not happening. What was the hurry to get a 3-series competitor to market?

 

IMHO, Lincoln has been wise to stay out of it, and work on the 5-size MKZ and do a new 7-size MKS. :)

 

interesting you said % and 7 series only, which is very american,

 

because infiiti has come to the conclusion that they need to be less american and more everywhere else to survive.

 

Infiniti to de-Americanize lineup, offer smaller & more efficient models - report

 

 

Infiniti President Johan de Nysschen has revealed plans to 'de-Americanize' the company's product lineup.

Speaking to Wards Auto, de Nysschen said "Our strong U.S.-centric focus has driven product strategy, and for Infiniti to be positioned as a strong contender in the premium market, we really do need to break the mold of [that] very strong focus."

He went on to say America's love affair with powerful engines has hampered European sales as most entry-level models are equipped with a 3.7-liter V6 petrol engine that develops 328 bhp (244 kW). To fix this problem, Infiniti will rely on Mercedes-Benz to provide smaller and more fuel-efficient engines like the 2.2-liter four-cylinder diesel that develops 170 HP (125 kW) and 400 Nm (295 lb-ft) of torque in the Euro-spec Q50.

 

when viewed from a strictly American perspective the ATS and new CTS looks strange but from the Global perspective It looks appropriate. with the MKZ It is not ready to become a Global Lincoln standard bearer, and long-term looks to become another transitional product.

Edited by Biker16

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Not to pick a fight, but I really don't think so. The MKZ and MKX could do very well in China, if Ford decides to sell there, which they might already be doing on a limited scale. The MKX could do very well internationally, IMHO, especially the next one.

 

The MKS is due for a re-do, and is S-class/A-8 in size.

 

North America will continue to be the major Lincoln market, but export sales are more possible today than when Lincoln was an MK-mastedon and there was probably a Bill Blass edition for the white-belt hip.

 

But the MKC will be the competition for the X-3 and Evoque and Q5, and IMHO, will probably work better for Lincoln than a "Series 3 fighter" for ROI. :)

 

interesting you said % and 7 series only, which is very american,

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China could be Lincoln's salvation depending on the reception vehicles like MKC, mew MKX and MKZ. receive.

As Buick discovered, the Chinese love smiling grilles and symbols.crests that transfer as luck or good fortune.

 

The key to this is Lincoln's marketing and styling approach, vehicles that the Chinese love that can still garner good sales at home

and could financially underpin ongoing development of those models, freeing Ford to develop other Lincoln variants for Nth America.

 

Ford production is ready to explode in China next year, let's hope that Lincoln is carried along in the stream.

Edited by jpd80

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Edstock" data-cid="874849" data-time="1381029282"><p>

<br />

IMHO, where all the PD wizards and number jerkers went sort of blind was that after great expense, GM brought forth a <em class='bbc'>single</em> competitor for just one model of the 3-<em class='bbc'>series </em>and if anything, the ATS has robbed the CTS of its momentum in the market, as there was a CTS coupe and wagon that might have arrived at sort of the same time as the new CTS sedan, but that's not happening. What was the hurry to get a 3-series competitor to market?<br />

<br />

IMHO, Lincoln has been wise to stay out of it, and work on the 5-size MKZ and do a new 7-size MKS. :)</p></blockquote>

 

It's still not the big picture, the platform is replacing the Camaro, Commodore and others. Even if they dont sale more ATS then 3s so what? It's making money while offering a true driving car instead of some fwd, middle-management knock-off.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Edstock" data-cid="874849" data-time="1381029282"><p>

<br />

IMHO, where all the PD wizards and number jerkers went sort of blind was that after great expense, GM brought forth a <em class='bbc'>single</em> competitor for just one model of the 3-<em class='bbc'>series </em>and if anything, the ATS has robbed the CTS of its momentum in the market, as there was a CTS coupe and wagon that might have arrived at sort of the same time as the new CTS sedan, but that's not happening. What was the hurry to get a 3-series competitor to market?<br />

<br />

IMHO, Lincoln has been wise to stay out of it, and work on the 5-size MKZ and do a new 7-size MKS. :)</p></blockquote>

 

It's still not the big picture, the platform is replacing the Camaro, Commodore and others. Even if they dont sale more ATS then 3s so what? It's making money while offering a true driving car instead of some fwd, middle-management knock-off.

 

Do we know it's making money? Not claiming it's not, but margins have to be pretty slim right now until platform volume increases.

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Even if they dont sale more ATS then 3s so what? It's making money while offering a true driving car instead of some fwd, middle-management knock-off.

 

It's making money? Really? After all the development costs? You know this how, exactly? Is it as profitable as the CTS? Is it as profitable as the Escalade? Please supply details. :)

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It's making money? Really? After all the development costs? You know this how, exactly? Is it as profitable as the CTS? Is it as profitable as the Escalade? Please supply details. :)

 

If I had to guess, I'd guess that the Alpha platform won't have begun to turn a profit until the next Camaro gets rolling... which means some time after late 2014.

 

Of course, something crazy could happen and the new CTS could absolutely take off. Time will tell.

 

But re: the ATS now, my guess is that it's making money but hasn't turned a profit yet, contrary to some assertions.

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If they had chosen one good platform in the beginning and used it for multiple vehicles like the ATS, CTS, Camaro, etc. they'd be a lot closer to making money now. It will take several years to amortize the platform costs and recover what they've wasted the last several years.

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It's still not the big picture, the platform is replacing the Camaro, Commodore and others. Even if they dont sale more ATS then 3s so what? It's making money while offering a true driving car instead of some fwd, middle-management knock-off.

Next proposal for post 2016 Commodore is still on Zeta, August inventiry level for ATS was 17,000 or 141 days.

Now I might be wrong but Cadillc may have to start discounting soon to move things along....

 

Sure, what's the harm in developing a vehicle on an expensive platform only to discover luke warm sales?

Nothing at all, it just proves that GM can spend a lot of money and see no significant outcome...

Edited by jpd80

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Next proposal for post 2016 Commodore is still on Zeta, August inventiry level for ATS was 17,000 or 141 days.

Now I might be wrong but Cadillc may have to start discounting soon to move things along....

 

Sure, what's the harm in developing a vehicle on an expensive platform only to discover luke warm sales?

Nothing at all, it just proves that GM can spend a lot of money and see no significant outcome...

 

They already have to put $3K on the hood just to sell 3K/month.

 

Sound familiar?

 

XLR

G8

GTO

Solstice/Sky

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If they had chosen one good platform in the beginning and used it for multiple vehicles like the ATS, CTS, Camaro, etc. they'd be a lot closer to making money now. It will take several years to amortize the platform costs and recover what they've wasted the last several years.

They could have used Zeta for a wide variety of mid sized and large cars starting 10 years ago. Instead they continued the G and W platforms and developed Sigma. Maybe Alpha and Sigma resulted in better cars, but GM might have made more money with wide use of Zeta.

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Next proposal for post 2016 Commodore is still on Zeta, August inventiry level for ATS was 17,000 or 141 days.

Now I might be wrong but Cadillc may have to start discounting soon to move things along....

 

Sure, what's the harm in developing a vehicle on an expensive platform only to discover luke warm sales?

Nothing at all, it just proves that GM can spend a lot of money and see no significant outcome...

 

Part of the problem is that GM is pitching the ATS as a direct competitor to the BMW 3-series, but every comparison test I've seen has it placing behind not only the BMW, but also the Lexus IS.

 

We can bash comparison tests as biased or unfair, but if potential buyers aren't given a compelling reason to visit the Cadillac dealer to check out its latest offering, they will not do so. A few first-place finishes in direct comparison tests would definitely give the Cadillac a needed boost.

 

If you are going up against the class leader, you'd better have a product that can withstand comparison. "Almost as good" isn't going to cut it.

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Do we know it's making money? Not claiming it's not, but margins have to be pretty slim right now until platform volume increases.

 

 

It's making money? Really? After all the development costs? You know this how, exactly? Is it as profitable as the CTS? Is it as profitable as the Escalade? Please supply details. :)

 

Funny, when it's a GM platform, you have to prove that it IS making money. When it's a Ford platform you have to prove it ISN'T making money.

 

Gotta love it.

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