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Aluminum Body Next Gen F-150, Natural Gas Engine Option

joihan777
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AGR

AGR

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I read the comments at the bottom, there's 3 minutes of my life that I won't get back. After skimming through those, I felt like I lost about 20 IQ. As for natural gas, if there's mass adaption, how long will it still be cheap? Not long, in my estimation. And some people(like some of those aforementioned commenters) have trouble enough refueling with liquids, how will they figure out how to do it properly when it's a stored-under-pressure gas? I don't want to be nearby to find out.

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RichardJensen

RichardJensen

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It surprises me that CNG and Propane kits cost $6,000 in the US when a car

propane conversion kit can be had in Australia for around $2,000 to $3,000.

 

So what am I missing?

 

You're not allowed to use a welded garbage can for a gas tank and a garden hose for delivery in the US. :-P

Edited by RichardJensen
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jpd80

jpd80

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You're not allowed to use a welded garbage can for a gas tank and a garden hose for delivery in the US. :-P

Well I'm gutted that you would think that....:rolleyes

 

My company has a new dedicated multipoint LPG Falcon Pick up on order for me that costs $2,000 more than a gasoline version.....

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theoldwizard

theoldwizard

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CNG option requires buying a $6k aftermarket upfit, and will be most popular with fleets--at least according to the fleet experts around here.

That is pretty inexpensive compared to today's price. Got a reference for that ?

 

 

From the referenced article.

 

The company recently announced that its F-150 will soon be available with a natural gas engine designed by Westport Innovations

INCORRECT !

 

This is nothing more than the base engine with a few upgrades (hardened valve seat and sodium filled exhaust valve, IIRC) Several aftermarket companies will be offering their service to upfit your truck. Choose one that has the Ford "Qualified Vehicle Modifier" (QVM) certificate and the vehicle will qualify for the standard warranty on the non-aftermarket parts.

 

This was an absolute "no brainer" on Ford's part. The design/validation work was being done for the Transit (CNG option on Transit was announced a couple of years ago). Once that work was complete, all they had to do was add a line item to the F150 order sheet ! Once they complete the design/validation work for the 2.5L in the Transit Connect (also previously announce) we can only hope that it will become a line item option on Fusion and Escape.

 

I have a friend who fuels his CNG vehicles at home for about $1.25/GGE !!

Edited by theoldwizard
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theoldwizard

theoldwizard

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Well I'm gutted that you would think that....:rolleyes

 

My company has a new dedicated multipoint LPG Falcon Pick up on order for me that costs $2,000 more than a gasoline version.....

An LP tank onlu has to hold a couple hundred pounds of pressure at most. These tanks are made out of relatively thin, mild steel. There are even non-automotive LP tanks made of fiber reinforced plastic.

 

CNG tanks have to hold 3,000-3,500. Older ones used heavy guage steel and weighed a ton ! Newer one used lighter gauge steel, but were wound with carbon fiber. 3M has recently announced they will be making a tank using a special resin and (I believe) carbon fiber. This new tank costs a lot less than the other alternatives.

 

The rest of the component for a CNG vehicle are almost identical to an LP vehicle except for the regulator and high pressure lines.

 

 

Another big difference may be the cost of certifying the vehicle with the appropriate government agencies (EAP and CARB). I am betting that cost is much higher in the US !! It is easier/cheaper to certify a dedicated gaseous fuel vehicle than a bi-fuel vehicle.

 

 

Disclosure: Currently NOT employed in the automotive industry. Anyone hiring CNG consultants ?

Edited by theoldwizard
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silvrsvt

silvrsvt

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If Ford does use a large amount of aluminum in the new F150, the price is going to go through the roof !

 

 

I'm sure that Ford is already mitigating that issue...

 

Oh another thing, I doubt we'll see Aluminum skinned F-150s...you run into issues with Alu and steel touching one another directly with corrosion

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jpd80

jpd80

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I'm sure that Ford is already mitigating that issue...

 

Oh another thing, I doubt we'll see Aluminum skinned F-150s...you run into issues with Alu and steel touching one another directly with corrosion

Stainless steel Bolts and washers, combined with rubber insulation mounts and backed up with slight cathodic charge

to reverse the chance of electrolysis.

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jpd80

jpd80

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If Ford does use a large amount of aluminum in the new F150, the price is going to go through the roof !

We all agree that Ford will be dropping significant weight in the next F150,

what remains to be seen is how Ford actually achieves that reduction

and how they get scales of economy to make it work financially..

 

Interesting times ahead.

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rkisler

rkisler

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Stainless steel Bolts and washers, combined with rubber insulation mounts and backed up with slight cathodic charge

to reverse the chance of electrolysis.

You are correct. Ford (and other manufacturers) are pretty good at using mixed aluminum/steel these days without problems.

 

The article that started this discussion isn't really a source article. However, I think we can look forward to a completely aluminum cab over steel frame, not just aluminum closures. I was told a couple of weeks ago by someone on the inside who wouldn't reveal everything to look at aluminum industry actions if I wanted to get an indication of what the F150 was going to be doing. One of the comments to the article from a poster in Davenport, Iowa, indicated that his plant capacity (Alcoa) was going up to support the F150, and there have been other articles that have indicated aluminum plant expansions elsewhere in the U.S. and also that automotive aluminum was expected to exceed cans as early as next year.

 

I haven't read anything yet about the actual cab construction including details like welding, riveting, bonding. These changes could require pretty large modifications to the body shop and is another good reason why Ford is going with a staggered launch. I can guarantee there will be some teething issues on something this different.

 

Yes, there will be a cost to aluminum. I'm not sure where things stand today, but in the original analysis of the Jag X350 (Jag XJ), aluminum cost in the neighborhood of $1,000 and saved around 500 pounds. That cost, however, has to be compared to alternative actions you would have to take to achieve the same fuel economy results. A lot of good things can happen when you get the weight out.

 

Now, on the cost side, if we could only keep f****** J P Morgan from schlepping aluminum from one warehouse to another to pump the price, we'd be further ahead.

 

A reference on expansion:

 

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/05/alcoa-20130503.html

Edited by Austin
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mackinaw

mackinaw

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......I was told a couple of weeks ago by someone on the inside who wouldn't reveal everything to look at aluminum industry actions if I wanted to get an indication of what the F150 was going to be doing. One of the comments to the article from a poster in Davenport, Iowa, indicated that his plant capacity (Alcoa) was going up to support the F150, and there have been other articles that have indicated aluminum plant expansions elsewhere in the U.S. and also that automotive aluminum was expected to exceed cans as early as next year......

 

Hmmm, maybe I should start thinking about buying some Alcoa stock.

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bzcat

bzcat

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It surprises me that CNG and Propane kits cost $6,000 in the US when a car

propane conversion kit can be had in Australia for around $2,000 to $3,000.

 

So what am I missing?

 

 

You're not allowed to use a welded garbage can for a gas tank and a garden hose for delivery in the US. :-P

 

 

Well I'm gutted that you would think that....:rolleyes

 

My company has a new dedicated multipoint LPG Falcon Pick up on order for me that costs $2,000 more than a gasoline version.....

 

Richard is being facetious but he is not far from the truth.

 

LPG, which is popular in Australia and New Zealand, is stored at lower pressure (177 psi) than CNG (over 3000 psi) that are popular in the US. This alone accounts for a lot of hardware costs.

 

In the US, there is also significant EPA certification costs and strict requirement to retire storage tanks after 10 to 15 years. The regulatory environment is different.

Edited by bzcat
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rkisler

rkisler

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Hmmm, maybe I should start thinking about buying some Alcoa stock.

Well, I'm not so familiar with Alcoa's potential, but I saw today that they were the most shorted stock in the market. Their debt has been downgraded below investment. They have been on a steady decline from around $30 per share in 2008 to $8 per share today. Unlike the general market, their share price has fallen almost in half from 2011. Yikes.

 

Maybe Ford got a really, really good deal on some open capacity? When you go walking into Alcoa or Alcan with F150 volume, you would tend to get some attention, particularly if you are willing to discuss long-term supply contracts.

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SoonerLS

SoonerLS

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Oh another thing, I doubt we'll see Aluminum skinned F-150s...you run into issues with Alu and steel touching one another directly with corrosion

As Austin noted, this ain't Ford's first rodeo when it come to using 'loomnum in automotive applications--they've been doing it for quite some time. The LS was rather an aluminum-intensive vehicle, and corrosion isn't really one of its problems (the closest you get was a "bubbling paint" problem that was, IIRC, traced back to a problem with the pre-painting prep, rather than the pop can sheet metal).

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OX1

OX1

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As Austin noted, this ain't Ford's first rodeo when it come to using 'loomnum in automotive applications--they've been doing it for quite some time. The LS was rather an aluminum-intensive vehicle, and corrosion isn't really one of its problems (the closest you get was a "bubbling paint" problem that was, IIRC, traced back to a problem with the pre-painting prep, rather than the pop can sheet metal).

 

But have they fixed that issue yet?

 

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/2011-v6-mustang-tech/336653-2011-paint-issues-2.html

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