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Joe771476

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The Allison 1000 and 2000 series transmissions are similar in many ways and both weigh about 330 lbs..  The 3000 is a much larger transmission and weighs about 600 lbs. depending on configuration.

You can spec. a 6.7L Cummins with a Allison 2000 series, but the 6.7L will be derated.  The transmission input torque figures kind of prove the current ratings of diesel in pickups are largely B.S., they are torque-limited to prevent driveline damage and only produce rated output in very specific circumstances.  GM is making a lot of noise the 2020 Duramax will not be torque-managed in low gear with the new Allison 10 speed.  I am sure it will be in the other 9 gears!

I wonder if FCA is looking at that new ZF for the Cummins powered Ram. 

  

 

Edited by 7Mary3

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1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said:

The Allison 1000 and 2000 series transmissions are similar in many ways and both weigh about 330 lbs..  The 3000 is a much larger transmission and weighs about 600 lbs. depending on configuration.

You can spec. a 6.7L Cummins with a Allison 2000 series, but the 6.7L will be derated.  The transmission input torque figures kind of prove the current ratings of diesel in pickups are largely B.S., they are torque-limited to prevent driveline damage and only produce rated output in very specific circumstances.  GM is making a lot of noise the 2020 Duramax will not be torque-managed in low gear with the new Allison 10 speed.  I am sure it will be in the other 9 gears!

I wonder if FCA is looking at that new ZF for the Cummins powered Ram. 

  

 

7m- Can't believe that low gear is not as critical as ANY gear when kit comes to the crazy HP/Torque numbers GM/Ram/ Ford are crowing about.  I was aware that they limited output and I guess they should have enough warranty info by now to prove the lightweight transmissions can survive.

I guess I'm just old school..  I still say, When I look at the Bluediamond 750 utility trucks in service around here, with augurs, pulling large cable trailers etc, I say no wonder they are not buying new 750's.  The fleet guys must be old school too😎

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34 minutes ago, twintornados said:

ZF and Allison ain't got nothin' on this....(although I am sure Bob R. and 7M will prove me wrong...lol)

https://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Vehicle/Transmissions/heavy-duty-automated/autoshift/index.htm

Autoshift transmission

TT-My understanding is all automated manuals still do not have the same smooth uninterrupted flow of power that a full automatic provides.  Basically what is automated is the clutch.  I have never driven an AMT but I guess regardless- AMT or fully auto, the big issue today is finding drivers who KNOW what a third pedal is.

 But back to Ford's decision to NOT offer the 3000 Allison, I think a lot of old time fleet guys will say..."show me the beef".  A 350 pd transmission is going to take the same beating that a 600 lb trans will?

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5 hours ago, twintornados said:

ZF and Allison ain't got nothin' on this....(although I am sure Bob R. and 7M will prove me wrong...lol)

https://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Vehicle/Transmissions/heavy-duty-automated/autoshift/index.htm

Autoshift transmission

You are not necessarily wrong, it's kind of apples and oranges.  Allisons are torque convertor 'true' automatics.  They don't need as many gear splits because of the torque multiplication factor of the torque convertor, are a lot smoother, and they deliver power continually through shifting.  Allisons are superior off-road (the military is almost exclusively Allison in their larger trucks).  I would say Alllsons are more expensive than AMT's, but more durable and less efficient in highway service.  It's not really that torque convertor automatics are better than AMT's, it's more like different tools for different jobs.  Incidentally, Allison has a new transmission called the TC-10, which is sort of halfway between a traditional Allison and an AMT.  It's basically a 10 speed AMT with a torque convertor instead of a clutch.        

Edited by 7Mary3

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From Hard Working Trucks Newsletter;

 

Ford today announced record sales of its F-650 and F-750 trucks.

According to this morning’s Q2 sales announcement, Ford’s Class 6/7 trucks just posted their best second quarter results since 1997, with an 83 percent year over year gain.

Ford credits continuous product improvement and a focus on expanding its commercial dealer network for the growth.

 

“By expanding our medium duty network and providing extensive training and support to our dealers, we now have more than 1,000 trained salespeople across the country helping our commercial customers order exactly the right trucks for their applications, which is directly contributing to our record sales,” says Kevin Koester, Ford commercial truck brand manager. “At the same time, our fivefold increase in medium duty servicing dealerships since 2015 gives customers confidence that whether they operate locally, regionally or nationally, they will be able to get service and support quickly. Since time is money for commercial customers, knowing that they can minimize costly downtime and keep their trucks on the job is also helping drive sales.”

When Ford introduced the all-new F-650 and F-750 in 2015, there were fewer than 100 Ford dealers across the country servicing Ford medium duty trucks. Thanks to an ongoing effort from the Ford sales and service teams, there are now more than 500 Ford dealers servicing medium duty trucks across the U.S., and the number of dealers stocking these trucks is up more than 25 percent year over year.

For the first half of the year, sales of F-650 and F-750 are up 53 percent, with growth in many vocational market segments, including tree service, towing, beverage distribution and delivery service/freight. Market share is up, too, with Ford picking up almost five points in the Class 6/7 chassis cab segment for a total share of nearly 20 percent, according to registration data through April.

In March, Ford announced that F-650 and F-750 for model year 2021 will come standard with a modem providing 4G LTE Wi-Fi for up to 10 devices, as well as many new driver assist technologies, including traction control, hill start assist and auto headlamps. Automatic emergency braking, adaptive cruise control, electronic stability control, lane departure warning, Driver Alert System and auto high-beam headlamps also will be available.

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Great news! But as someone suggested, I've seen about 20 new U-haul mediums in the last week!  Ok, time for class 8!  And they don't necessarily have to go into OTR tractors right away.  But vocational!  Fire, construction, with tandem axle availability.  Also, I saw a Ram print ad where they now have a new Ram with styling similar to the new F150 aluminum.  The original beefier Ram is now called the Classic!  The new GM pickups also have styling cues similar to the F150.  I think it's the door handles!  I've been laughed at before, but I think they can easily and cheaply change the appearance of a vehicle just by changing the door handles!  Glad to see they have more dealers now; I drive past huge dealers on I-395 in Putnam and Norwich CT among others, and not one medium do I see!  Ford has the potential of having the biggest network of dealers far and away beyond that of Hino, Freightliner, International, PACCAR (KW/Pete), Mack/Volvo;  but up to now, they haven't taken advantage of it.

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Wow, had no idea there were only 100 dealers handling the 650/750.  More dealers should help.  Is the increase in sales due to the increase in dealers or did Ford land some good fleet orders? 

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11 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

Wow, had no idea there were only 100 dealers handling the 650/750.  More dealers should help.  Is the increase in sales due to the increase in dealers or did Ford land some good fleet orders? 

A guess?  combination.  If all of a sudden there is a big increase in dealers-who I'm sure had to pay up something in terms of a training commitment?-they then had to sign up for some inventory?

Here in Mass. long time Ford Heavy Truck store that  went with International when Sterling went belly up but kept Ford mediums, just sold out.  New owners I'm told gave up Ford mediums that went to big car dealer up the street.  And story  I heard when, Sterling left, Ford gave these guys  450 and up but would NOT let them sell 250-350- the car dealer had those.  And I should add, car dealer is a long time Ford store.

Still say, until they  get another option to Powerstroke/Torqueshift they are leaving a lot of business on the table.

I know the sales stats say Ford is beating Hino in class 6 and 7, you would never know it by the observations on the street here in New England.

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The vast majority of the Ford MDs I see are 650s.

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2 hours ago, rmc523 said:

The vast majority of the Ford MDs I see are 650s.

And the majority of inventory trucks I see in the two monthly sales  rags I get are 650's..FET tax cheaters-and the majority V-10's.  The 7.3 should do very well.

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14 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

And the majority of inventory trucks I see in the two monthly sales  rags I get are 650's..FET tax cheaters-and the majority V-10's.  The 7.3 should do very well.

They are gonna LOVE the F600....

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Question to those that may know....

Obviously F-650 and F-750 fall under the "Heavy trucks" on Ford's sales results, but where do F-450, F-550, and the coming F-600 go in the charts since they're based on Super Duty?  F-series?  or Heavy trucks?   Or does like 450 go to F-series, while 550+ go to heavy trucks?

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On 7/8/2019 at 12:08 PM, rmc523 said:

Question to those that may know....

Obviously F-650 and F-750 fall under the "Heavy trucks" on Ford's sales results, but where do F-450, F-550, and the coming F-600 go in the charts since they're based on Super Duty?  F-series?  or Heavy trucks?   Or does like 450 go to F-series, while 550+ go to heavy trucks?

In comparing the stats on Heavy Duty Trucking, with the Ford Heavy Truck numbers, I would say Ford's numbers are just 650 and 750.  Once the 600  goers into production, my bet is 600 willbe counted as a "Heavy" as it is class 6.

HDT by the way lists class 8, 7, and 6 as separate stats and 3/4/5 as a group.

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 New issue of Work Truck has an article on new Hino XL class 8's.  33,000 to 62,000 lbs GVWR.  Obviously an XL with a 33,000 lb. rating would be a class 7 but In think what sets that apart from the 338 which also has a 33,000 lb rating, is the XL 7 is available with a Hino A09 turbo which is 8.9 L and has a B-10 life of 1 million miles.  Max HP is 360 and torque 1,150 lb. ft.

Ford may be crowing about big sales stats last month?  I guess that was another big U-Haul order.  Anyone at OAP have an opinion?   

In the meantime, International  numbers in class 6 and 7 also continue to grow.

My guess?  Ford is content to grab what they can and in particular with gas power when the 7.3 goes into production.  Anything beyond that?  Seems like  that is being given up to Hino, International and Paccar and Ford has no interest in going to the next level.  

Sad state of affairs IMO.

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If ALL of the Ford dealers can service class 1 thru 5, whether diesels or not, you mean they can't service class 6 and 7?  They really need special training/certification?  And I can't understand that customers won't trust the Ford powertrain, but they will trust Hino's?  What kind of record does Hino have?  What is the name of their diesel?  Does it have a name?

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10 minutes ago, Joe771476 said:

If ALL of the Ford dealers can service class 1 thru 5, whether diesels or not, you mean they can't service class 6 and 7?  They really need special training/certification?  And I can't understand that customers won't trust the Ford powertrain, but they will trust Hino's?  What kind of record does Hino have?  What is the name of their diesel?  Does it have a name?

Its name is Toyota.

 

And yes, some jurisdictions have separate classifications for coach/heavy truck mechanics vs light duty vehicle mechanics.

Edited by J-150

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well I knew it was a Toyota truck and assumed it was their engine, the AO9 diesel.  I guess I was looking for a fancy name like Powerstroke!  So anyway, that's supposed to be more trustworthy than the Ford?  Yeah I know about Toyota quality.  But they've earned the right to be more trusted than the Ford powertrain?  We'll see.

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44 minutes ago, Joe771476 said:

well I knew it was a Toyota truck and assumed it was their engine, the AO9 diesel.  I guess I was looking for a fancy name like Powerstroke!  So anyway, that's supposed to be more trustworthy than the Ford?  Yeah I know about Toyota quality.  But they've earned the right to be more trusted than the Ford powertrain?  We'll see.

I guess you've never dealt with a Toyota diesel forklift. They're pretty solid without catchy ad agency focus group names.

Edited by J-150

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5 hours ago, J-150 said:

I guess you've never dealt with a Toyota diesel forklift. They're pretty solid without catchy ad agency focus group names.

Oh great!! Now everyone will be complaining that Ford doesn't build diesel forklifts and is leaving an important segment behind. 

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So, what changes are in store for the 2021 F-650 and 750?  I hear 2020 will be a very short MY, and the 2021's will go on sale 1st. Q 2020.  7.3L gas V-8 for sure, maybe the aluminum F series cab?   

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1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said:

So, what changes are in store for the 2021 F-650 and 750?  I hear 2020 will be a very short MY, and the 2021's will go on sale 1st. Q 2020.  7.3L gas V-8 for sure, maybe the aluminum F series cab?   

And of course, the F600 as the reach up from F550 which was around 4700 sales last month.

i mildly excited to see how the fully fleshed out Super  Duty and MDs go, the 7.3 has been needed for a looong time.

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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

And of course, the F600 as the reach up from F550 which was around 4700 sales last month.

i mildly excited to see how the fully fleshed out Super  Duty and MDs go, the 7.3 has been needed for a looong time.

The 7.3 can't get here soon enough.  As you all have seen in the news, Cape Cod had two tornados touch down this week.  Nothing like the rest of the country unfortunately experiences, but a lot of tree damage and power outages in any case. 

Utility and tree service trucks from all over the region are here.   A lot of Bluediamond 750's- OAP 750's with 6.7 Powerstroke/Torqueshift drivetrains?  I'll keep my eyes peeled but my bet is the only new Fords I'll see will be Lewis Tree or Asplund- and they will probably be 650 V-10's

Gee- I wonder why the utility industry had no reservation about buying Bluediamond 750's for heavy bucket/pole cat service but seem to be avoiding OAP trucks.????

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Vehicle..........  06-19.....06-18........%........6Mth-19.....6Mth-18..........%
Class 4 ............ 2,097 ......2,274 ....–7.8..........3,436 .......16,860 .........–20.3
Class 5 .............4,702 ......4,725 ....–0.5 .......26,810 ........25,882 .............3.6
Class 6 ............ 2,263 ......1,947 .....16.2 .......12,323 ........10,010 ...........23.1
Class 7 ................162 ........147 ......10.2 .........1,058 .............781 ...........35.5
Class 8 ....................5 ..........16 ....–68.8 .............59 ...............65 ............–9.2
Ford ................9,229 ....9,109 .......1.3 ......53,686 .......53,598 .............0.2

* Class 8 is just a version of F750 that fits that criteria.

Combined F Series for July was 79,426 and given F150 is  built at 2:1 ratio of SDs,
so with some basic estimations we have the following breakdown, (kinda)
Take out F650/F750 and  total sales of F150/SD were 76,996, assume F150 is 2/3s of that.

F150.....51,331  (28,665 SDs,  of which 21, 869 are F250/F350)
F250.....14,580
F350.......7,289
F450.......2,097
F550.......4,702
F650.......2,263
F750..........167
TOT........79,426

Edited by jpd80

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