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Joe771476

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The 6.0L and 4.5L Powerstrokes were not PR nightmares.  They were nightmares period!  Just plain unreliable and expensive to repair.  Anyway, very true about gas engines, particularly in class 4 through 6.  Isuzu has reshuffled their model lineup for 2020, the popular NPR will be gasoline only but diesels will still be available in the NRR and NQR.  The class 6 FTR is rumored to be getting the new GM 6.6L gas engine sometime in 2020, and the 6.6L will likely be in the Silverado medium/International CV around the same time.  The 7.3L is definitely the right move for Ford, I could see it outselling the 6.7L Powerstroke in commercial F series trucks within a few years.

There are a couple of rumors I am hearing that if true could mean more competition for Ford.  The first is a larger gasoline engine for the medium duty Rams, along with a class 6 offering.  If true, I think the engine would likely be a 7L heavy duty version of the Hemi, and no doubt the truck would be a 6500 version of the Ram 5500 cab and chassis, like the new F-600.  The second rumor is another GM/Navistar JV  truck, this time a class 7.  It may be in the form of a replacement for the current International DuraStar/MV series with GM supplying a new 8L+ gasoline V-8.  

Even if all this comes to pass, I think Ford is in a good position in class 3 through 5.  Class 6 and 7 is a little cloudy, I think Ford will need to maintain a cost advantage over their competitors to be successful. 

    

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5 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

The 6.0L and 4.5L Powerstrokes were not PR nightmares.  They were nightmares period!  Just plain unreliable and expensive to repair.  Anyway, very true about gas engines, particularly in class 4 through 6.  Isuzu has reshuffled their model lineup for 2020, the popular NPR will be gasoline only but diesels will still be available in the NRR and NQR.  The class 6 FTR is rumored to be getting the new GM 6.6L gas engine sometime in 2020, and the 6.6L will likely be in the Silverado medium/International CV around the same time.  The 7.3L is definitely the right move for Ford, I could see it outselling the 6.7L Powerstroke in commercial F series trucks within a few years.

There are a couple of rumors I am hearing that if true could mean more competition for Ford.  The first is a larger gasoline engine for the medium duty Rams, along with a class 6 offering.  If true, I think the engine would likely be a 7L heavy duty version of the Hemi, and no doubt the truck would be a 6500 version of the Ram 5500 cab and chassis, like the new F-600.  The second rumor is another GM/Navistar JV  truck, this time a class 7.  It may be in the form of a replacement for the current International DuraStar/MV series with GM supplying a new 8L+ gasoline V-8.  

Even if all this comes to pass, I think Ford is in a good position in class 3 through 5.  Class 6 and 7 is a little cloudy, I think Ford will need to maintain a cost advantage over their competitors to be successful. 

    

Could you imagine an LCF with the 7.3L Windsor gas in place of the 4.5L PS.....

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9 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

The 6.0L and 4.5L Powerstrokes were not PR nightmares.  They were nightmares period!  Just plain unreliable and expensive to repair. 

Only because of morons who didn't take care of them properly or idiots trying to repair them. They needed something that the 7.3 never did... maintenance. 

99% of the injector issues were fuel pressure and oil quality. 90% of the FICM issues were guys who didn't keep the charging system up to snuff. Stuck Turbo? Can't let them sit. They were designed to work every day, not be grocery getters. EGR cooler failures were usually lack of maintenance of the cooling system, leading to oil cooler failure plugging which starved the EGR cooler. Headgaskets were the only real issue that could be blamed on design. 

Most of the heavy truck applications of the VT365 never had 90% of the issues Ford did with the engine. 

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Our fleet never had too many 6.0L Powerstrokes, but they were trouble.  And if anything, we over-maintained them.  A couple of our techs. were recruited from Ford dealerships, and their expertise was invaluable.  The proof for us was the fact that right alongside the 6.0L Powerstrokes we had 7.3L Powerstrokes, 5.9L and 6.7L Cummins B's, Isuzu 4HK1's, and a couple of Duramax's that were far less trouble and less expensive to own in the same applications.  We did have one oddball F-650 with a 6.0L, and it wasn't really any better than the F-450's.

We have an employee that had a F-250 Super Duty and he rebuilt the 6.0L with the special head gaskets and stud kit, did an EGR delete and an bunch of other modifications and did pretty well with it.   

 

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8 hours ago, theoldwizard said:

I always thought that part of the Blue Diamond LCF lack of success was simply low demand.  Has that changed ?

There was plenty of demand. LCF failed because the unreliable diesel engine.

Isuzu, Toyota (Hino), Daimler (Fuso), Volvo (UD), and Paccar all sell cab forward mediums. GM is also back in the segment thanks to Isuzu. So the only player not in the market right now are FCA, Ford, and Navistar. I imagine Navistar will probably be back once VW is able to exercise more influence over product development and offering.

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20 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

Our fleet never had too many 6.0L Powerstrokes, but they were trouble.  And if anything, we over-maintained them.  A couple of our techs. were recruited from Ford dealerships, and their expertise was invaluable.  The proof for us was the fact that right alongside the 6.0L Powerstrokes we had 7.3L Powerstrokes, 5.9L and 6.7L Cummins B's, Isuzu 4HK1's, and a couple of Duramax's that were far less trouble and less expensive to own in the same applications.  We did have one oddball F-650 with a 6.0L, and it wasn't really any better than the F-450's.

We have an employee that had a F-250 Super Duty and he rebuilt the 6.0L with the special head gaskets and stud kit, did an EGR delete and an bunch of other modifications and did pretty well with it.   

 

If you think the 6.0 was bad, you have never experienced the 6.4. 

7.3 was reliable IF you could keep the valve cover gaskets and under valve cover harnesses from burning up or coming loose, OR keep the EBP's from sticking shut, OR the up pipes didn't start leaking and losing drive pressure on the turbo, OR keep the water pumps from leaking and/or dropping the fan in the radiator, OR keep the IDM dry, OR worst of all keep oil in it from the HPOP, external HP oil lines, cross drill ports, galley plugs, turbo pedestal and rotted oil pans. But yeah, the base engine was reliable because it made so little power it couldn't break... that is, unless you had sintered rods. In light duty applications the OBS dual mass flywheel always broke and the 6 speed manual was an absolute POS. The topper? E4OD/4R100.  

Proper maintenance procedures and timing, blue spring regulator, fuel pressure guage and volt meter solve 80% of the stock 6.0 "problems" as long as the operator will use them and the T/S 5 was WORLDS better than the 4 speed ever dreamed. 

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I never seem to get bored with these.  You just don't see this stuff in the states!  Or I never have anyway.   These trucks are gigantico!  LOL  Only about 3 minutes

Camiones TORTON FORD CLASICOS de la VIEJA ESCUELA #2!! - YouTube

Edited by Joe771476

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Number 10 surprised me, but when I told some people they said yeah, the electro chemicals in the brain boost the reach.  Crazy!  I hope 1 thru 9 are in the manual because I can't remember half of what he said!

Top 10 Hidden Features of the New F150! - YouTube

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 Well I did a drive  through the Altech installation facility here in Lancaster MA.  Small facility with I think like no more than six installation bays.  They must have around 75 new F-550 (mostly Power Strokes and all white) in the yard and ONE 5500 Ram.  thought by now the new GM/Navistars in 4500/5500 range would be showing up but not the case.  As for class 7 and 8's Mostly F'liners with a large number of Internationals.  Even a few KW's and Western stars.

Interesting that there were always F-750's there in the old days when you could get a Cummins or a Cat in them with an  Allison.  No doubt the utility industry does NOT think a lot of the new 750 Power Stroke/ Torque shift combo in the  higher weight classes.

Class 5?  Ford continues to rule-at least by what you see in this Altech yard.  And I just saw the 3mos ytd sales figures as posted in HDT.  Ford finally outsold Ram in 3-4- and 5.  Have not seen a new GM/Navistar JV class 4,5,6 on road yet although some New England dealers are advertising they have inventory.

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April sales

Brand.............April '19......April '18.........%..........YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change                                         

RAM Class 5........1,414............990......42.8%...........4,127............4,473..........–7.7%  

Brand...................April '19......April '18......%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change 
Class 4........................2,940............2,936......0.1%...........9,111..........11,999.........–24.1%                                               Class 5 ..................... 4,596...........4,244.......8.3%.........17,347..........16,556............4.8%
Class 6 ..................... 2,929..........1,453....101.6%...........7,504............6,101...........23.0%
Class 7 ........................140...............58....141.4%..............756..............504.............50.0%
Class 8 ............................5..................8....–37.5%...............32................40...........–20.0%
Ford .........................10,610.........8,699......22.0%.......34,750........35,200...........–1.3%

Brand..................April '19......April '18......%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change  
Class 4 .........................13.............35.....–62.9%..............241...............312..........–22.8%
Class 5 .......................412............542.....–24.0%...........1,461.............1,189..........22.9%
Class 6 ....................1,256..........2,021.....–37.9%...........7,522.............8,436........–10.8%
Class 7 ....................2,769..........2,358.......17.4%...........9,691.............9,588............1.1%
Class 8 ....................8,209..........6,400.......28.3%..........33,795...........25,446..........32.8%
Freightliner ..........12,659......11,356......11.5%..........52,710.........44,971.........17.2%

Brand.................April '19......April '18......%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change  
Class 4 ........................79...............151...–47.7%...............258.............448...........–42.4%
Class 5 ......................284...............205.....38.5%...............839.............864.............–2.9%
Class 6 ......................526...............568.....–7.4%.............2,231..........2,524...........–11.6%
Class 7 ......................144.................94.....53.2%................643.............532.............20.9%
Hino......................1,033...........1,018......1.5%...........3,971..........4,368...........–9.1%

Brand................April '19......April '18......%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change  
Class 3 & 4 ....................1................–........–.......................1................ –................. –
Class 5 ........................19................1........– ....................34.................9...............277.8%
Class 6 ....................1,862.........1,598.....16.5%............ 8,428...........6,406.............31.6%
Class 7 ....................1,220............905.....34.8%.............4,929...........3,834.............28.6%
Class 8 ....................3,537.........2,826.....25.2%............12,902...........9,372.............37.7%
International .........6,639........5,330....24.6%............26,294.......19,621............34.0%

Brand.....................April '19......April '18..........%.............YTD '19..... ..YTD '18.......% change 
Class 3 & 4 ..............1,855............1,593......16.4%.............4,792.............4,516..........6.1%
Class 5 ......................468................503.......–7.0%............1,694.............1,577..........7.4%
Class 6 ........................78..................93......–16.1%...............338...............323...........4.6%
Isuzu ....................2,401...........2,189.........9.7%........... 6,824...........6,416..........6.4%

Brand.................April '19......April '18............%.........YTD '19.........YTD '18.......% change  
Class 5 .........................16.................2..........700.0%..............24..................3.........700.0%
Class 6 ...................... 282..............205............37.6%............957...............829..........15.4%
Class 7 .......................546..............372............46.8%..........1,649............1,313..........25.6%
Class 8 ....................3,755...........2,983.............25.9%........11,955............9,684..........23.5%
Kenworth ..............4,599..........3,562............29.1%.......14,585.........11,829.........23.3%

Brand.....................April '19......April '18............%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change  
Mack Class 8 ............. 1,924...............1,182.......62.8%..............5,729..........4,972...........15.2%

Brand.........................April '19......April '18........%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change  
Class 3 & 4 ..........................–...............70.............–.....................–..............195.................–
Class 5 ................................–................16.............–.....................–...............39..................–
Mitsubishi Fuso................–................86...........–...................–..............234............. –

Brand.....................April '19.........April '18............%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change  
Class 5 .......................... –........................–................–.......................4................–..............–
Class 6 ...........................3.......................29............–89.7%............... 12...............56.........–78.6%
Class 7 ........................681.....................564..............20.7%.......... 2,334...........2,544..........–8.3%
Class 8 ......................3,842..................3,115.............23.3%.........12,743..........10,929..........16.6%
Peterbilt ..................4,526................3,708............22.1%........15,093........13,529.........11.6%

Brand..........................April '19......April '18......%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change   
Volvo Class 8 .......................2,199..........1,943 ...13.2%............7,943.........7,367.........7.8%

Brand...............................April '19......April '18......%.............YTD '19.......YTD '18.......% change   
Western Star Cl 8.....................558.............501....11.4%...........1,841..........1,700...........8.3%

 

Edited by jpd80

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Bob if that company trusts the Powerstrokes in the 550's, then why won't they give the mediums a chance?  Are those F-liners etc. new or been in service for a while?  Bluebird bus has been using the Ford tranny with the Roush propane conversion engine.  I wonder how the Ford powertrain is performing in the Pierce Saber fire trucks.

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7 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

Bob if that company trusts the Powerstrokes in the 550's, then why won't they give the mediums a chance?  Are those F-liners etc. new or been in service for a while?  Bluebird bus has been using the Ford tranny with the Roush propane conversion engine.  I wonder how the Ford powertrain is performing in the Pierce Saber fire trucks.

Joe,

My bet is the transmission (Torqueshift) is as much a problem for them as is the Power  Stroke.  Ford talks about how they "beefed" it up when it went from 6 to 10 speeds  -and in the same breath they say the weight increased by 3 pounds!  That sound like a lot of "beef"?

As for the 550, no doubt it has worked well.  I just have to think in spite of the extended warranty, these guys aren't willing to experiment vs. the Cummins/ Allison alternative. 

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2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Joe,

My bet is the transmission (Torqueshift) is as much a problem for them as is the Power  Stroke.  Ford talks about how they "beefed" it up when it went from 6 to 10 speeds  -and in the same breath they say the weight increased by 3 pounds!  That sound like a lot of "beef"?

As for the 550, no doubt it has worked well.  I just have to think in spite of the extended warranty, these guys aren't willing to experiment vs. the Cummins/ Allison alternative. 

6.7 PS and Torque Shift in Class 6 and 7 really is a stretch for most  fleet buyers used to the comfort level of Cummins/Allison in that segment,  if Ford offered say a 9 liter I-6 Duratorque and Allison Transmission, maybe they would stand a chance. Literally thousands of sales going begging each month because Ford won't even try something different...or should that be "similar to other manufacturers"?

Edited by jpd80

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4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

6.7 PS and Torque Shift in Class 6 and 7 really is a stretch for most  fleet buyers used to the comfort level of Cummins/Allison in that segment,  if Ford offered say a 9 liter I-6 Duratorque and Allison Transmission, maybe they would stand a chance. Literally thousands of sales going begging each month because Ford won't even try something different...or should that be "similar to other manufacturers"?

IMO you are right on.  The naysayers will disagree but I say the utilities had no trouble buying 750's before in the Bluediamond era -and before-when a Cat or Cummins/ Allison was available.  virtually same truck today being built at OAP with exception of the power train options-or lack of same.

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